Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 748679 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3840 on: December 17, 2020, 12:39:12 AM »
If the stairs were locked, then they wouldn’t have bounced back up after Cooper jump and there would have been no pressure bump.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3841 on: December 17, 2020, 01:01:46 AM »
You must be misunderstanding. I never said they locked in flight. the stairs never locked while Cooper was on them.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3842 on: December 17, 2020, 01:11:50 AM »
From an aviation page...

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. In normal operation the airstair is either downlocked, uplocked, or in transit; there is no way to stop it at some halfway point. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. A powered 727 obligatorily uses hydraulics to deploy the airstair (unless hydraulic system B is disabled, which there is no evidence of and would have been unacceptably risky given the other systems that depend on it). As long as the operation lever was left in the down position (and we know it wasn't up, or the stair would have retracted), the hydraulics would have continued to try to extend the stair further. However, the airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. In fact, some later 727s did away entirely with the mechanical latches in favor of more robustly sealed actuators that could trap hydraulic fluid well enough to prevent movement. N467US did not have this capability, so the extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3843 on: December 17, 2020, 01:13:00 AM »
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To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an overcenter position.

This is what I was talking about with the stairs not going all the way down and having to apply pressure to lock them.

Assuming that the air stairs were deployed, it may be that the force of the airflow passing by would have been sufficient to spare the stairs from a tailstrike. The stairs have a large surface area and moving at perhaps around 100 knots when the nosewheel touches down would still generate a considerable force to push them into the fuselage.

Shutter, the nose wheel touching down means that the aft fuselage was rising and that would not generate a force to push the stairs into the fuselage.  Such an action would cause the stairs to rotate downward rather than upward.

When landing at Reno, the tower was asked to carefully watch the stairs and let the flight crew know when they struck the runway.  The stairs didn't contact the runway until the aircraft was actually turning off the runway at a very low speed.  The damage to the stairs was minor scrapes.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3844 on: December 17, 2020, 01:17:08 AM »
Quote
Shutter, the nose wheel touching down means that the aft fuselage was rising and that would not generate a force to push the stairs into the fuselage.  Such an action would cause the stairs to rotate downward rather than upward.

Where did I mention anything about the nose gear? that should of been a quote..wasn't my writing..
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:18:30 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3845 on: December 17, 2020, 01:20:09 AM »
23:03, NW305: SEE ANY SPARKS COMING OFF THE TAIL AT ANY TIME ON AH TOUCHDOWN

23:03, RENO: NEGATIVE NONE AT ALL THE ONLY THING THAT'S VISIBLE ON THE TAIL IS LIGHT AH APPARENTLY ON YOUR RAMP

23:03, NW305: ROGER UNDERSTAND STAIR LAMPS AH STAIR LIGHTS

23:03, RENO: I DO SEE SOME AH SPARKS NOW JUST A FEW AH TRAILING YOU AH AS YOU'RE TAXIING IN

23:03, NW305: OUR AH PASSENGER TRIED TO DISEMBARK

23:03, RENO: I STILL DON'T AH GETTING A FEW SPARKS NOT VERY MANY AT ALL

23:03, NW305: OKAY WE'LL TRY TO SLOW OUR TAXIING HERE AS MUCH AH IT PROBABLY IS DRAGGIN AH
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:24:38 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3846 on: December 17, 2020, 01:21:33 AM »
Actually, should cause them to bounce? depending how hard to nose touched down.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:25:23 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3847 on: December 17, 2020, 01:26:28 AM »
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Quote
Shutter, the nose wheel touching down means that the aft fuselage was rising and that would not generate a force to push the stairs into the fuselage.  Such an action would cause the stairs to rotate downward rather than upward.

Where did I mention anything about the nose gear? that should of been a quote..wasn't my writing..

You mentioned it in post #3839 above which is what I quoted in its entirety.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:28:13 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3848 on: December 17, 2020, 01:27:49 AM »
Yes, I corrected my reply stating it wasn't my writing..should of been quoted.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3849 on: December 17, 2020, 01:33:02 AM »
Another portion from the Aviation page..

As it turns out, the stair could not be opened much if at all at 170 knots during a climb, and the captain had to "have 'er about down to a hundred and sixty knots" and level off at 7,000 feet to get the resistance low enough. It makes sense that a higher angle of attack would cause a greater air load on the door due to the increased frontal area. It also makes sense that the airflow alone would be insufficient at any speed to completely re-close the door due to the geometry of the empennage and the continued downward hydraulic pressure. Once the door was open, the crew were able to climb again to 10,000 feet and keep the airspeed "in the vicinity of one seventy, one eighty [knots]".

Although the aforementioned hydraulic actuators would have provided damping, the swirling wakes from the landing gear and flaps—not to mention the aircraft turbulence inherent when flying low and slow over mountains in a storm—undoubtedly wrenched the stairs up and down considerably. Cooper's exit has been romanticized as a high-dive into the unknown, but it was more like trying to exit a springboard during an earthquake, with his own weight just exacerbating the problem. We know as much from Richard McCoy, Jr., a copycat hijacker who survived his jump (at the same airspeed) and was later captured and interviewed:
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3850 on: December 17, 2020, 01:39:06 AM »
Basically, once the plane was slow enough while taxing the hydraulics kicked in lowering the stairs if this is correct..

Update:

Aft Stairs System

The aft stairs are raised and lowered hydraulically as selected at either of the two interconnected control levers.

The control levers operate the mechanical uplock and hydraulic control valve. when the lowering cycle is in-itiated, the mechanical uplock is dis-engaged and the stairs will begin to free-fall. under normal conditions, system B hydraulic pressure will assists in lowering the stairs.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 02:49:07 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3851 on: December 17, 2020, 10:43:14 AM »
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Unless one of you knows differently for a fact, I'm not sure there would be a 'locked down' position. If they operated hydraulically in both directions, then there would be. But according to Flyjack, they drop down by gravity, and the hydraulics are just used to pull them back up. If that is the case, then in their normal usage on the ground, they would just drop either to full extension or till they come to rest on the ground. There would not need to be a 'locked' down position.

Yes, there is a locked down position and yes, they are hydraulically lowered as well as free-falling (together). system A & B has 3,000 psi running through them. the only way they will not lock down is the failure of system B. the hydraulics also get the actuators/struts past center to lock. once they start to show wear (seals) they might need help getting the actuators past center by applying weight on the bottom step. pressure will remain in the system for 30 minutes after shutting down. if system B fails, you need to utilize the hand pump found under the fuselage to open and close the stairs.

We have storm shutters that act in a similar way. they crank up and down manually. while cranking down they sort of free-fall while loading the spring to assist cranking it back up due to the weight of the blades. the more popular and easier version is motorized.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 11:36:47 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3852 on: December 17, 2020, 12:12:38 PM »
I guess I'm more curious on what the conditions on those aft stairs were as Cooper was walking down and standing on them. I've always had it in my head that they were pretty stable and he easily walked down to the bottom and jumped.

Now, it would seem that even as Cooper made his way down to jump, those things would be pretty unstable, bouncing around in the wind. It's possible it made Cooper's decent down them a bit more treacherous and required him to go slower to avoid simply losing his balance and falling out.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3853 on: December 17, 2020, 02:30:11 PM »
At least Cooper didn't try to jump on the wing like this guy  :rofl:


..
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 03:38:08 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3854 on: December 17, 2020, 04:18:47 PM »
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I guess I'm more curious on what the conditions on those aft stairs were as Cooper was walking down and standing on them. I've always had it in my head that they were pretty stable and he easily walked down to the bottom and jumped.

Now, it would seem that even as Cooper made his way down to jump, those things would be pretty unstable, bouncing around in the wind. It's possible it made Cooper's decent down them a bit more treacherous and required him to go slower to avoid simply losing his balance and falling out.

I concur with Shutter on this ... Cooper's reaction to those stairs depends on his experience. It could have been anything from terrified to SOP.  ;)  We just dont know who this guy was or his background. Probably a little more stable than a rope bridge in a hurricane across a gorge ? Im guessing -  O0