Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 283858 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3990 on: March 02, 2021, 10:33:28 AM »
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I guess you could ask what decade they read all the files. we have no idea what agent X did in 1988?

One of the problems I see with the FBI is the failure to close a case or allow a cold case team go through it with a fine tooth comb. most cases are closed anywhere from months to several years. once it starts going nowhere it gets put on the shelf.

The 70's had the placard and the John Doe warrant.
The 80's the money was found at the beginning of the decade.
The 90's got Lyle and Jo  :rofl:
2000's we have the DNA, Tom Kaye and the particles/diatoms.

Simply digitizing the case like Fly has done would have helped. As noted, the FBI did have suspects who worked in industrial chemicals, for example.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3991 on: March 02, 2021, 10:53:49 AM »
Frankly the single greatest thing that the FBI could do is simply open the files up and give greater access to the evidence. After 50 years, why not?

By engaging citizen sleuths you're essentially crowd sourcing which means you're leveraging a lot more minds and a lot more resources--financial and otherwise.

The Zodiac cipher was cracked by a private group. The Golden State Killer was identified by a private group. DBC can also be resolved by a private group if given proper access to the evidence and files.

As for me, if I'm successful in my Congressional run I am going to attempt to change the law to afford citizen sleuths a legitimate opportunity to solve some of these cold case crimes after a certain period of time. Why not?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3992 on: March 02, 2021, 10:59:13 AM »
Law enforcement, at the local, state, and federal levels, work on cold cases that are decades old on a regular basis. Institutional memory is important, and each  investigator that inherits a cold case goes through the case with a fine toothed comb. However, also important is a fresh set of eyes and new perspectives that may illuminate parts of a case that other investigators may not have considered. It also allows for multiple levels of accountability and redundancy. If one guys missed something earlier, a new investigator can identify that.

I've met and spoken with retired and active detectives who work 50+ year old cold cases. They are the ones that eat at them the most and they leave virtually no stone unturned in investigating them.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3993 on: March 02, 2021, 11:04:07 AM »
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Frankly the single greatest thing that the FBI could do is simply open the files up and give greater access to the evidence. After 50 years, why not?

By engaging citizen sleuths you're essentially crowd sourcing which means you're leveraging a lot more minds and a lot more resources--financial and otherwise.

The Zodiac cipher was cracked by a private group. The Golden State Killer was identified by a private group. DBC can also be resolved by a private group if given proper access to the evidence and files.

As for me, if I'm successful in my Congressional run I am going to attempt to change the law to afford citizen sleuths a legitimate opportunity to solve some of these cold case crimes after a certain period of time. Why not?
I agree 100% that cold case files should be made public after a certain time - 50 years perhaps - especially if there has been no movement in the case. I've been vocal about California law enforcement agencies releasing all the files and information pertaining to the Zodiac case which is even older than Cooper, but because the case is still an active homicide investigation, there is nothing but silence. Very frustrating.

However, if you will permit me one quibble, GSK was identified by law enforcement using a private DNA website, not by a private group itself.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3994 on: March 02, 2021, 12:42:29 PM »
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Frankly the single greatest thing that the FBI could do is simply open the files up and give greater access to the evidence. After 50 years, why not?

By engaging citizen sleuths you're essentially crowd sourcing which means you're leveraging a lot more minds and a lot more resources--financial and otherwise.

The Zodiac cipher was cracked by a private group. The Golden State Killer was identified by a private group. DBC can also be resolved by a private group if given proper access to the evidence and files.

As for me, if I'm successful in my Congressional run I am going to attempt to change the law to afford citizen sleuths a legitimate opportunity to solve some of these cold case crimes after a certain period of time. Why not?
I agree 100% that cold case files should be made public after a certain time - 50 years perhaps - especially if there has been no movement in the case. I've been vocal about California law enforcement agencies releasing all the files and information pertaining to the Zodiac case which is even older than Cooper, but because the case is still an active homicide investigation, there is nothing but silence. Very frustrating.

However, if you will permit me one quibble, GSK was identified by law enforcement using a private DNA website, not by a private group itself.

In reality, none of the Zodiac ciphers have been broken nor have the self-styled solvers even determined what constitutes the actual ciphers.  GSK was identified by private individuals and a DNA company working in concert with law enforcement personnel.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3995 on: March 02, 2021, 01:15:04 PM »
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Frankly the single greatest thing that the FBI could do is simply open the files up and give greater access to the evidence. After 50 years, why not?

By engaging citizen sleuths you're essentially crowd sourcing which means you're leveraging a lot more minds and a lot more resources--financial and otherwise.

The Zodiac cipher was cracked by a private group. The Golden State Killer was identified by a private group. DBC can also be resolved by a private group if given proper access to the evidence and files.

As for me, if I'm successful in my Congressional run I am going to attempt to change the law to afford citizen sleuths a legitimate opportunity to solve some of these cold case crimes after a certain period of time. Why not?
I agree 100% that cold case files should be made public after a certain time - 50 years perhaps - especially if there has been no movement in the case. I've been vocal about California law enforcement agencies releasing all the files and information pertaining to the Zodiac case which is even older than Cooper, but because the case is still an active homicide investigation, there is nothing but silence. Very frustrating.

However, if you will permit me one quibble, GSK was identified by law enforcement using a private DNA website, not by a private group itself.

In reality, none of the Zodiac ciphers have been broken nor have the self-styled solvers even determined what constitutes the actual ciphers.  GSK was identified by private individuals and a DNA company working in concert with law enforcement personnel.
None of what you said is accurate and a 90 second Google search would verify that, but please keeping talking because it continues to impugn your credibility.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3996 on: March 02, 2021, 01:21:48 PM »
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Frankly the single greatest thing that the FBI could do is simply open the files up and give greater access to the evidence. After 50 years, why not?

By engaging citizen sleuths you're essentially crowd sourcing which means you're leveraging a lot more minds and a lot more resources--financial and otherwise.

The Zodiac cipher was cracked by a private group. The Golden State Killer was identified by a private group. DBC can also be resolved by a private group if given proper access to the evidence and files.

As for me, if I'm successful in my Congressional run I am going to attempt to change the law to afford citizen sleuths a legitimate opportunity to solve some of these cold case crimes after a certain period of time. Why not?
I agree 100% that cold case files should be made public after a certain time - 50 years perhaps - especially if there has been no movement in the case. I've been vocal about California law enforcement agencies releasing all the files and information pertaining to the Zodiac case which is even older than Cooper, but because the case is still an active homicide investigation, there is nothing but silence. Very frustrating.

However, if you will permit me one quibble, GSK was identified by law enforcement using a private DNA website, not by a private group itself.

In reality, none of the Zodiac ciphers have been broken nor have the self-styled solvers even determined what constitutes the actual ciphers.  GSK was identified by private individuals and a DNA company working in concert with law enforcement personnel.
None of what you said is accurate and a 90 second Google search would verify that, but please keeping talking because it continues to impugn your credibility.

Chaucer, there is a difference between claiming that the Zodiac ciphers have been solved and actually solving them.  Any number of people have claimed solutions and none of these "solutions" are correct and, in fact, contradict each other.

You need to a Google search on both the Zodiac and GSK matters. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3997 on: March 02, 2021, 02:30:42 PM »
Keep talking, Robert. Please.

Meanwhile, I encourage everyone to google what he is talking about and tell me if he's right.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3998 on: March 02, 2021, 03:23:55 PM »
People are free to believe what they want to believe or not believe. That alone should not be an invitation to be a dick or jump someone's shit. It really gets very old, especially from those who haven't contributed a damn thing to the investigation.

I've stated that I believe the Western Flight Path is accurate. Moreover, I point to what I consider evidence supporting this belief:

1) The placard: Of course I realize some are now arguing that the placard is from some other 727. That said, I'm still having a very hard time believing that the FBI attributed the placard--which references a red handle--to 305 if 305 doesn't have a red handle. Not mention all of the other problems explaining how an interior placard ended up outside.

2) The fiberglass skirt: We know that a large piece of a Boeing 727 from atop the rear airstairs door was found in the woods and verified by Boeing's 727 section. We also know that a similarly sized piece went missing off of 305 from atop the rear airstairs door. We know the FBI in 1975 said there was not a large piece missing from 305. We know this is incorrect.

3) The money find: We know where the money was found. We know where the FBI search area was. We know that they are 20 miles apart as the crow flies. And we know that the Western Flight Path not only flies within a couple thousand feet of where the money was found, but we also know that 305 flying along the Western Flight Path would have passed Tena Bar within approximately 120 seconds of DBC's jump time.

This is all very compelling to me. If others choose to see it differently, so be it.

Cheers!
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3999 on: March 02, 2021, 03:40:35 PM »
Quote
2) The fiberglass skirt: We know that a large piece of a Boeing 727 from atop the rear airstairs door was found in the woods and verified by Boeing's 727 section.

Yes, but it doesn't specify several things. it reads as a whole part, nothing in reference to a piece of a larger part. one would tend to believe the Boeing employee would tell him it's part of the skirting that came off while the stairs were open. why just give a size and say it was above the stairs.

Verification is going to be hard since so much time has passed. the guy might be a goner by now?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4000 on: March 02, 2021, 03:48:13 PM »
Quote
1) The placard: Of course I realize some are now arguing that the placard is from some other 727. That said, I'm still having a very hard time believing that the FBI attributed the placard--which references a red handle--to 305 if 305 doesn't have a red handle. Not mention all of the other problems explaining how an interior placard ended up outside.

I'm not sure if any believes it's from another jet as much as it might not be from 305. it's not just the handle. it appears to not have the emergency function (305) there is no lock wire required with the normal stair function. if it didn't have this, then why would the placard be on the aircraft? these are very concerning issues. no other placards came off with pressure changes. it doesn't make sense or add up. the FBI hasn't a clue about it. they go by what is told to them. had Northwest confirmed it was from 305 we would have the answer.

no 302's reference the placard missing. even days later they pulled they pulled the stairwell panels off to see if Cooper could of hid behind them..actually, they might of been told it takes two people to remove the panels vs taking them out..will read the 302 again.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:59:18 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4001 on: March 02, 2021, 04:04:07 PM »
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Quote
1) The placard: Of course I realize some are now arguing that the placard is from some other 727. That said, I'm still having a very hard time believing that the FBI attributed the placard--which references a red handle--to 305 if 305 doesn't have a red handle. Not mention all of the other problems explaining how an interior placard ended up outside.

I'm not sure if any believes it's from another jet as much as it might not be from 305. it's not just the handle. it appears to not have the emergency function (305) there is no lock wire required with the normal stair function. if it didn't have this, then why would the placard be on the aircraft? these are very concerning issues. no other placards came off with pressure changes. it doesn't make sense or add up. the FBI hasn't a clue about it. they go by what is told to them. had Northwest confirmed it was from 305 we would have the answer.

no 302's reference the placard missing. even days later they pulled they pulled the stairwell panels off to see if Cooper could of hid behind them..

Has it been confirmed that 305 did not have an emergency release mechanism? If it has then there would not be a red handle anywhere on the jet. Yet the placard references a red handle. The FBI stated that they believed the placard was from 305--this after not revealing the placard to the public for months.

Remember, I contacted the placard supplier and they verified that this placard was affixed to the interior of the back airstairs cone area. Moreover, the placard is not perforated with small holes as is typical for exterior placards. Plus the placard was in reasonably good shape and not worn like other exterior placards.

Finally, if a jet does not have an interior emergency release mechanism, will it have an exterior emergency release mechanism?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4002 on: March 02, 2021, 04:13:10 PM »
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People are free to believe what they want to believe or not believe. That alone should not be an invitation to be a dick or jump someone's shit. It really gets very old, especially from those who haven't contributed a damn thing to the investigation.

I've stated that I believe the Western Flight Path is accurate. Moreover, I point to what I consider evidence supporting this belief:

1) The placard: Of course I realize some are now arguing that the placard is from some other 727. That said, I'm still having a very hard time believing that the FBI attributed the placard--which references a red handle--to 305 if 305 doesn't have a red handle. Not mention all of the other problems explaining how an interior placard ended up outside.

2) The fiberglass skirt: We know that a large piece of a Boeing 727 from atop the rear airstairs door was found in the woods and verified by Boeing's 727 section. We also know that a similarly sized piece went missing off of 305 from atop the rear airstairs door. We know the FBI in 1975 said there was not a large piece missing from 305. We know this is incorrect.

3) The money find: We know where the money was found. We know where the FBI search area was. We know that they are 20 miles apart as the crow flies. And we know that the Western Flight Path not only flies within a couple thousand feet of where the money was found, but we also know that 305 flying along the Western Flight Path would have passed Tena Bar within approximately 120 seconds of DBC's jump time.

This is all very compelling to me. If others choose to see it differently, so be it.

Cheers!
No one is "jumping in anyone's shit". No one is "being a dick". I'm challenging your assertions. In response, you are the one who began name-calling.

Again, the three pieces of evidence that you just used to support your conclusions are flimsy at best and contradictory at worst. Meanwhile, the central flight path has mountains of documented, official evidence from the FBI and USAF.

Yes, you have every right to hold whatever opinion you want, but the amount of work someone has or has not put into the case is not proportional to the accuracy of their claims.

Saying your conclusions are wrong is not "being a dick" or "jumping in someone's shit", it's how collaborative research is conducted.

Meanwhile...I'm busying googling this Zodiac guy...who knew?  :rofl:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 04:18:30 PM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4003 on: March 02, 2021, 04:21:00 PM »
Quote
The FBI stated that they believed the placard was from 305

Believed is not confirmed...no, not all 727-100 aircraft had a separate control or emergency function. zero, were on the 200 series. this is what causes the problem.

1) the small panel on the wall has instructions on the front.
2) the larger placard could of been supplied to go above the panel giving further instructions.
3) the panel can not been seen in the stairwell. I know you use the poor quality to help support the possibility of it being obscured but I don't see it along with others.
4) a placard can be seen in the stairwell even with the poor quality photo. why didn't that one come off?

I  fully understand exactly where the placard goes. it's not relevant if it doesn't belong on 305. how it got on the ground and found would become the real mystery. I suggest calling Boeing back and asking specific questions about the placard and it's reason.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4004 on: March 02, 2021, 04:25:49 PM »
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Quote
The FBI stated that they believed the placard was from 305

Believed is not confirmed...no, not all 727-100 aircraft had a separate control or emergency function. zero, were on the 200 series. this is what causes the problem.

1) the small panel on the wall has instructions on the front.
2) the larger placard could of been supplied to go above the panel giving further instructions.
3) the panel can not been seen in the stairwell. I know you use the poor quality to help support the possibility of it being obscured but I don't see it along with others.
4) a placard can be seen in the stairwell even with the poor quality photo. why didn't that one come off?

I  fully understand exactly where the placard goes. it's not relevant if it doesn't belong on 305. how it got on the ground and found would become the real mystery. I suggest calling Boeing back and asking specific questions about the placard and it's reason.
Shutter,
Let's say for the sake of argument that the Hicks placard WAS from 305. It's location would put it virtually underneath V-23. While there have been suggestions since that the wind would have carried it miles eastward, I've seen no evidence of this. Furthermore, we don't know what mechanisms would have acted on the placard in the years between 1971 and its discovery. It could have ended up in a tree and then blown westward, no? It could have gotten caught up in updrafts or downdrafts blowing in off the Cascades. My point is that even if the placard was from 305, it can't be used as evidence of a western flight path. Would you agree or disagree?