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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 755771 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3735 on: November 28, 2020, 06:38:58 PM »
I don’t think I’m expressing myself properly.

In most, if not all, of the the FBI files, they repeatedly use the word “oscillations” to refer to the time that Cooper exited the aircraft.

In fact, in Part 41, p. 35 it says “An analysis as to the the cause of this “oscillation”, also referred to as a “pressure bump” or “change in cabin pressure” pointed to the probability that it was caused by the hijacker leaving the aircraft.”

I tend to think of these as two different events. The “oscillations” were caused by Cooper walking down the aft stairs. The “pressure bump” was caused by him jumping.

However, in the mind of the FBI it seems, the oscillations and pressure bump were the same thing. This discrepancy in vocabulary is critical in creating an accurate timeline.

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3736 on: November 28, 2020, 07:11:53 PM »
Agent Carr believes they only spoke about the oscillation and not the bump..

the noise started the second Cooper opened the bulkhead door. then he dropped the stairs causing more noise.  I'm sure once he started down the stairs the oscillation began or were greater from that point. the trouble appears to be how long he was on the stairs prior to jumping.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3737 on: November 28, 2020, 07:31:24 PM »
Ratazcak explains it here...if you have watched this you can jump to 28 minutes into the video...this documentary has Bruce in it


..
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3738 on: November 28, 2020, 07:45:25 PM »
Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3739 on: November 28, 2020, 08:03:16 PM »
This is one of the problem you have with any type of simulation. it's hard to recreate something you are not sure of or get mixed data. one or two minutes off and you have a wide area to search..
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3740 on: November 28, 2020, 11:29:54 PM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Many people have always felt that's a good estimate ...
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3741 on: November 29, 2020, 12:20:23 AM »
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I don’t think I’m expressing myself properly.

In most, if not all, of the the FBI files, they repeatedly use the word “oscillations” to refer to the time that Cooper exited the aircraft.

In fact, in Part 41, p. 35 it says “An analysis as to the the cause of this “oscillation”, also referred to as a “pressure bump” or “change in cabin pressure” pointed to the probability that it was caused by the hijacker leaving the aircraft.”

I tend to think of these as two different events. The “oscillations” were caused by Cooper walking down the aft stairs. The “pressure bump” was caused by him jumping.

However, in the mind of the FBI it seems, the oscillations and pressure bump were the same thing. This discrepancy in vocabulary is critical in creating an accurate timeline.

Chaucer, please keep in mind that there were two radio links with the airliner.  And that the radio transcripts for both have been heavily redacted.

First, the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts have 19 areas of redactions and do not contain any useful information for locating the aircraft or anything else from about five minutes after the aircraft took off from Seattle until it was handed off to the Oakland Center in Northern California.  Take a look at the Oakland Center radio transcripts if you want to know what the Seattle Center transcripts should look like.  The air traffic control information was transmitted over the usual control frequencies.

Second, a telephone patch was set up with the airliner through the ARINC frequency.  ARINC is a private subscription aeronautical communications service.  Everything other than air traffic control information would be made over this phone/radio patch.  However, the transcripts of these communications have been heavily redacted as well according to a study made by Fred Poynter and his group at the WSHM.

The FBI/FAA are sitting on the information that is needed to determine the actual flight path of the airliner and the communications through the ARINC system.  There is no reason to believe that they will ever be released.

As a side note, 377 has posted of his experience in jumping from a DC-9 that had the rear stairs completely removed.  He said that when each jumper took a dive through that opening, there was a distinct change in sound.  He could tell when someone jumped just based on the sound change.  There would not be bumps or oscillations on the DC-9 jumps since the aft stairs had been removed and thus they would not change the airflow or rebound into the fuselage structure.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 12:24:31 AM by Robert99 »
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3742 on: November 29, 2020, 12:57:58 AM »
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I don’t think I’m expressing myself properly.

In most, if not all, of the the FBI files, they repeatedly use the word “oscillations” to refer to the time that Cooper exited the aircraft.

In fact, in Part 41, p. 35 it says “An analysis as to the the cause of this “oscillation”, also referred to as a “pressure bump” or “change in cabin pressure” pointed to the probability that it was caused by the hijacker leaving the aircraft.”

I tend to think of these as two different events. The “oscillations” were caused by Cooper walking down the aft stairs. The “pressure bump” was caused by him jumping.

However, in the mind of the FBI it seems, the oscillations and pressure bump were the same thing. This discrepancy in vocabulary is critical in creating an accurate timeline.

You are all mixed up and confused .... from lack of reading all of the 302s available spread through several Parts spanning a whole time period from approx 11/24 to 12/16.  Now Rev R99 chimes in claiming REDACTIONS again and Radios! ... which is nonsense, has nothing to do with anything!

Focus on 302s that use the later term "pressure oscillations" vs the simpler earliest term "oscillations" ..................

Believe the prophet of your choice. There are a bunch of them around each with a story to sell. All are free and all are wrong so far!  The FBI did recognise oscillations vs pressure bump, a new term "pressure oscillations" was coined to cover both oscillations and bump ... but stop focusing on the FBI - the FBI did not do any of this engineering, the FBI are not engineers!, the FBI was merely a recipient of all of this work done by NWA engineers, the FAA, and Air Force people! 

FBI 302s merely reflect what other people knew, developed, and were doing, and were telling the FBI -  I cant stress this enough!   

And forget redactions and radios! Fuck redactions and radios!   Unless there are transcripts only the FAA has or ever saw, redactions is irrelevant and may not exist anyway!  The existing record is enough to know the facts in any event - and Poynter, R99, and Walter Raleigh, and Richard Nixon are irrelevant. ;)

It is a fact Soderlind had to petition the FBI to get the FAA to release information to him. In addition NWA shared data only they had with the FAA! The FBI were merely bystanders trying to keep track of the whole thing so they could launch searches.  The FBI tried to serve as intermediaries between diverse parties who otherwise were not even communicating with each other. The FBI needed to launch a search - they needed to know where to search. Its as simple as that!

Read this - note the date 11/25 the day after the hijacking. This is one of the very earliest estimates and they are already focused on a pressure event. By Jan 1-16 they will be using the term "pressure oscillations" ... the terms used change as the understanding changes!

There arent any redactions in the doc below!  :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 01:24:35 AM by georger »
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3743 on: November 29, 2020, 01:30:09 AM »
Georger,
You're responding to an older post. I have since done further research and cross-referenced that against the information that you sent me a few weeks ago.

As I have since stated, the "oscillations" were reported between 8:10 and 8:12. The "pressure bump" which is presumed to be caused by Cooper's jump, occurred AFTER 8:12. There are no indications of how much later except for flight crew statements. ("hadn't crossed the Columbia/lights of Portland were coming up/10 to 15 minutes after last contact") So, based on those alone, it seems to me that the jump occurred between 8:13 and 8:17.

I know this isn't any bombshell revelation. Many have arrived at this same conclusion. But I needed to work it out myself to be sure rather than take the word of others.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3744 on: November 29, 2020, 01:35:23 PM »
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I don’t think I’m expressing myself properly.

In most, if not all, of the the FBI files, they repeatedly use the word “oscillations” to refer to the time that Cooper exited the aircraft.

In fact, in Part 41, p. 35 it says “An analysis as to the the cause of this “oscillation”, also referred to as a “pressure bump” or “change in cabin pressure” pointed to the probability that it was caused by the hijacker leaving the aircraft.”

I tend to think of these as two different events. The “oscillations” were caused by Cooper walking down the aft stairs. The “pressure bump” was caused by him jumping.

However, in the mind of the FBI it seems, the oscillations and pressure bump were the same thing. This discrepancy in vocabulary is critical in creating an accurate timeline.

You are all mixed up and confused .... from lack of reading all of the 302s available spread through several Parts spanning a whole time period from approx 11/24 to 12/16.  Now Rev R99 chimes in claiming REDACTIONS again and Radios! ... which is nonsense, has nothing to do with anything!

Focus on 302s that use the later term "pressure oscillations" vs the simpler earliest term "oscillations" ..................

Believe the prophet of your choice. There are a bunch of them around each with a story to sell. All are free and all are wrong so far!  The FBI did recognise oscillations vs pressure bump, a new term "pressure oscillations" was coined to cover both oscillations and bump ... but stop focusing on the FBI - the FBI did not do any of this engineering, the FBI are not engineers!, the FBI was merely a recipient of all of this work done by NWA engineers, the FAA, and Air Force people! 

FBI 302s merely reflect what other people knew, developed, and were doing, and were telling the FBI -  I cant stress this enough!   

And forget redactions and radios! Fuck redactions and radios!   Unless there are transcripts only the FAA has or ever saw, redactions is irrelevant and may not exist anyway!  The existing record is enough to know the facts in any event - and Poynter, R99, and Walter Raleigh, and Richard Nixon are irrelevant. ;)

It is a fact Soderlind had to petition the FBI to get the FAA to release information to him. In addition NWA shared data only they had with the FAA! The FBI were merely bystanders trying to keep track of the whole thing so they could launch searches.  The FBI tried to serve as intermediaries between diverse parties who otherwise were not even communicating with each other. The FBI needed to launch a search - they needed to know where to search. Its as simple as that!

Read this - note the date 11/25 the day after the hijacking. This is one of the very earliest estimates and they are already focused on a pressure event. By Jan 1-16 they will be using the term "pressure oscillations" ... the terms used change as the understanding changes!

There arent any redactions in the doc below!  :rofl:

Just more nonsense from Georger that shows again his disdain for facts.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3745 on: November 29, 2020, 03:59:49 PM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 04:01:49 PM by Robert99 »
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3746 on: November 29, 2020, 05:15:45 PM »
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<>11/25 the day after the hijacking. This is one of the very earliest estimates and they are already focused on a pressure event. <>

Could anyone confirm that Crawford, Washington, to which reference is made in this document, is Crawford, Venersborg CPD, Clark County (latitude 45.803, longitude -122.485)?
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3747 on: November 29, 2020, 05:52:03 PM »
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Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
Robert,
I have made it a point not to respond to any of your posts because I think you are a generally toxic person. However, I want to clear a few things up. First, I’m not suggesting that the oscillations weren’t related. I’m suggesting that they aren’t the same event. The oscillations were likely Cooper walking down the stairs followed by a “bump” when Cooper jumped. The oscillations are documented as occurring between 8:10 and 8:12. The time of the bump is never documented, but one can assume it happened after 8:12 since that is the latest time the oscillations are reported. Perhaps it happened at 8:13. Perhaps later. Oscillations followed by a bump.

Second, georger doesn’t tell me anything. He and I exchange emails, messages, information and discuss the case. We don’t always agree but he has been helpful and respectful. Nothing he has said strikes me as inaccurate. You, on the other hand, have only made impertinent comments about ATC transcript redactions.

That said, I’m going to go back to generally ignoring your posts.

Happy holidays.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3748 on: November 29, 2020, 05:58:24 PM »
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<>11/25 the day after the hijacking. This is one of the very earliest estimates and they are already focused on a pressure event. <>

Could anyone confirm that Crawford, Washington, to which reference is made in this document, is Crawford, Venersborg CPD, Clark County (latitude 45.803, longitude -122.485)?

Crawford, WA is generally thought to be Battleground, WA. Personally, I have never heard anyone utter the words, "Crawford, WA."
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3749 on: November 29, 2020, 07:00:06 PM »
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<>11/25 the day after the hijacking. This is one of the very earliest estimates and they are already focused on a pressure event. <>

Could anyone confirm that Crawford, Washington, to which reference is made in this document, is Crawford, Venersborg CPD, Clark County (latitude 45.803, longitude -122.485)?

FlyJack has just posted a map on DropZone that shows a Crawford a few miles just south of Heisson and a few miles northeast of the town of Battleground.
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