Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 591975 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6810 on: July 30, 2021, 03:46:59 PM »
Recently released 302s and Fly Jack's copious reads have brought more clarity to the parachute issue. I think it's clear now that Cooper jumped with one of Hayden's chutes and not a Cossey rig. Issues still linger on the exact nature of the Hayden chutes, though.

Another big question is whom the FBI talked to at Boeing Flight Services about the parachutes - at midnight on the night of the skyjacking no less - and what role that office had in the parachute procurement.

Another question is: where is the packing card that has the SN 60-9707 serial number on it? It was found in Reno, but now? Another lost item down in Vegas??? Sigh.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 03:48:55 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6811 on: July 30, 2021, 04:26:18 PM »
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Recently released 302s and Fly Jack's copious reads have brought more clarity to the parachute issue. I think it's clear now that Cooper jumped with one of Hayden's chutes and not a Cossey rig. Issues still linger on the exact nature of the Hayden chutes, though.

Another big question is whom the FBI talked to at Boeing Flight Services about the parachutes - at midnight on the night of the skyjacking no less - and what role that office had in the parachute procurement.

Another question is: where is the packing card that has the SN 60-9707 serial number on it? It was found in Reno, but now? Another lost item down in Vegas??? Sigh.

Bruce, the answer to your question about Boeing Flight Services has already been answered many times by the FBI and Hayden.  NWA personnel at SEATAC (probably Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC) got in touch with Boeing Flight Services for assistance in locating parachutes.  They in turn got in touch with Hayden and he sent them his two backpacks by taxi.  Boeing Flight Services then got them to the NWA people at SEATAC by one means or another.

There is no documentation that even suggests that NWA or anyone else tried to get backpacks from McChord, Cossey, or anywhere else despite the claim that one of the flight attendants told Cooper that the parachutes were coming from McChord.

 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6812 on: July 30, 2021, 04:26:37 PM »
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Recently released 302s and Fly Jack's copious reads have brought more clarity to the parachute issue. I think it's clear now that Cooper jumped with one of Hayden's chutes and not a Cossey rig. Issues still linger on the exact nature of the Hayden chutes, though.

Another big question is whom the FBI talked to at Boeing Flight Services about the parachutes - at midnight on the night of the skyjacking no less - and what role that office had in the parachute procurement.

Another question is: where is the packing card that has the SN 60-9707 serial number on it? It was found in Reno, but now? Another lost item down in Vegas??? Sigh.

Bruce, the answer to your question about Boeing Flight Services has already been answered many times by the FBI and Hayden.  NWA personnel at SEATAC (probably Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC) got in touch with Boeing Flight Services for assistance in locating parachutes.  They in turn got in touch with Hayden and he sent them his two backpacks by taxi.  Boeing Flight Services then got them to the NWA people at SEATAC by one means or another.

There is no documentation that even suggests that NWA or anyone else tried to get backpacks from McChord, Cossey, or anywhere else despite the claim that one of the flight attendants told Cooper that the parachutes were coming from McChord.  Further, there is no evidence that Cossey had anything to do with getting any parachutes to NWA.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 04:29:10 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6813 on: July 30, 2021, 05:08:27 PM »
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           If Cooper was able to find the rigger`s cards, doesn`t  that indicate some level of  skydiving ability?  I was under the impression that the cards aren`t  easily accessed?  Also brings up the question...Why was he looking in the first place?  I have my own thoughts on why, but am curious as to what others think.     

Maybe maybe not. The cards are not that hard to access, but they and the pocket they are in are not that big, so it depends on where they are placed which would determine how readily apparent they are. Cooper asked for 'two back and two front' chutes. That indicates to me that he is at least somewhat familiar with them, and he's asking for two complete rigs. Sport mains do not have packing cards, but they do have the D-rings to attach the reserves. When he gets the bailout rigs, which do not have the D-rings, he may have took to examining them and come across the cards.

---------

As per the discussion at Mountain News - Again, as someone with over 40 years of using parachutes, and over 30 years of teaching their usage, I just don't see anything reasonable that Cossey could have done to that ripcord that would make it 'too hard' for Cooper to use. They're just not that complicated.

Also, now supposedly Cooper is opening the backpack bailout rigs? I extremely doubt that. Unless he is now a rigger, it would be near impossible for him to get them usably closed again, what with the spring loaded pilot chute and all. Especially if they have the metal cones, rather than cloth closing loops, for the ripcord pins to go into.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6814 on: July 30, 2021, 05:28:13 PM »
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           If Cooper was able to find the rigger`s cards, doesn`t  that indicate some level of  skydiving ability?  I was under the impression that the cards aren`t  easily accessed?  Also brings up the question...Why was he looking in the first place?  I have my own thoughts on why, but am curious as to what others think.     

Maybe maybe not. The cards are not that hard to access, but they and the pocket they are in are not that big, so it depends on where they are placed which would determine how readily apparent they are. Cooper asked for 'two back and two front' chutes. That indicates to me that he is at least somewhat familiar with them, and he's asking for two complete rigs. Sport mains do not have packing cards, but they do have the D-rings to attach the reserves. When he gets the bailout rigs, which do not have the D-rings, he may have took to examining them and come across the cards.

---------

As per the discussion at Mountain News - Again, as someone with over 40 years of using parachutes, and over 30 years of teaching their usage, I just don't see anything reasonable that Cossey could have done to that ripcord that would make it 'too hard' for Cooper to use. They're just not that complicated.

Also, now supposedly Cooper is opening the backpack bailout rigs? I extremely doubt that. Unless he is now a rigger, it would be near impossible for him to get them usably closed again, what with the spring loaded pilot chute and all. Especially if they have the metal cones, rather than cloth closing loops, for the ripcord pins to go into.

Where exactly are these cards ... in Hayden's chutes? Do you have to open the chutes to get to them? If yes, then there is a repacking issue you cite ? 
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6815 on: July 30, 2021, 05:52:20 PM »
No you would not have to open the container to get at the card. That would defeat the purpose. The container has the thread rigger's seal on the last pin, showing that it has not been opened since the rigger closed it. Typically you'd look at the card to see if it is 'in date', that is, that it had been repacked within the required time cycle for it to be legal. In Cooper's day that was probably either 90 or 120 days.

Not sure exactly where the card pocket would be on Hayden's rig, but it would be external. It might be on the harness somewhere, but I would expect to find it somewhere on the backpad, the surface up against your back if you had it on.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6816 on: July 30, 2021, 05:54:27 PM »
I can verify with certainty that Norm Hayden did interview with the FBI on 11/26/71. Moreover, that he stated that he bought an airplane in the beginning of May 1971. And, that he purchased the two rigs from Cossey who packed them and sold them to Hayden on May 21, 1971.

Moreover, Hayden referenced two unbroken lead seals on the rigs.

Once the jet landed in Reno, the FBI described to Cossey the rigs left on the jet and he therefore knew the other one that was missing which he described as the NB6.
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6817 on: July 30, 2021, 06:13:01 PM »
The seal is a piece of thread that loops around where the last ripcord pin is. It breaks if the pin is pulled to open the container. The lead part is a little round thing sort of like the weights on a fishing line. The thread is routed through two little holes on the lead thing, then it is crimped shut by a tool that leaves a three letter identification on it. The rigger writes those three letters on the card so that you can see that it was the same rigger that left the seal and signed the card.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6818 on: July 30, 2021, 06:15:46 PM »
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The seal is a piece of thread that loops around where the last ripcord pin is. It breaks if the pin is pulled to open the container. The lead part is a little round thing sort of like the weights on a fishing line. The thread is routed through two little holes on the lead thing, then it is crimped shut by a tool that leaves a three letter identification on it. The rigger writes those three letters on the card so that you can see that it was the same rigger that left the seal and signed the card.

The lead seals were unbroken when delivered to DBC.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6819 on: July 30, 2021, 07:40:58 PM »
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The seal is a piece of thread that loops around where the last ripcord pin is. It breaks if the pin is pulled to open the container. The lead part is a little round thing sort of like the weights on a fishing line. The thread is routed through two little holes on the lead thing, then it is crimped shut by a tool that leaves a three letter identification on it. The rigger writes those three letters on the card so that you can see that it was the same rigger that left the seal and signed the card.

The lead seals were unbroken when delivered to DBC.

Dudeman is absolutely correct in pointing out that there was no need for Cooper to open any parachute to inspect it and if he did he would not be able to repack it in the airplane.  If Cooper knew enough about parachutes to compare the rigger's initials on the packing card and the rigger's seal on the bottom ripcord pin then he knew he had a good chute when they agreed.  This also means that Cooper had some training in emergency parachutes even if he had never jumped a chute.

The packing card in the NB-6 that I owned in 1971 had the card pocket on the container behind the back pad.  Someone who had never seen an NB-6 before would have to look around a bit to find it and the harness itself required some thought to put it on correctly.

The good thing about the NB-6 was that it had about the same descent rate as a 28-foot canopy but was much thinner when packed due to the way the canopy, shroud lines, and risers were constructed and assembled.  Since the container was thinner, NB-6s were ideal for use in aircraft that were not designed for backpack parachutes in the first place.  As a result, in the 1960s, NB-6s were hard to find and cost about two or three times more than 28-foot canopy parachutes. 

Eric, do you know what kind of aircraft Hayden owned?
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6820 on: July 30, 2021, 11:31:59 PM »
OK, (good explanations) ... so, were cards to Hayden's two chutes found in the card pocket of the remaining Hayden chute, found on the plane at Reno - as FJ is suggesting ? Were cards for two Hayden chutes found on the plane at Reno?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 11:34:04 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6821 on: July 31, 2021, 12:34:28 AM »
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Eric, do you know what kind of aircraft Hayden owned?

I do not know what type of plane he purchased. Apparently he needed the two rigs though.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6822 on: July 31, 2021, 12:47:23 AM »
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Eric, do you know what kind of aircraft Hayden owned?

I do not know what type of plane he purchased. Apparently he needed the two rigs though.

Hayden apparently had a two-place aerobatic aircraft that used backpack parachutes.  Some aerobatic aircraft needed to use seat pack parachutes.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6823 on: July 31, 2021, 01:40:40 AM »
          Is there any difference in the rigging cards of a chute packed by the military vs. the rigging card of a similar chute packed by  a civilian rigger? (other than name of rigger)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 01:42:01 AM by haggarknew »
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6824 on: July 31, 2021, 01:59:27 AM »
           As per Hayden's aircraft... Wasn't there mention of this in Bruce's book? I'll have to go back and look.