Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 573226 times)

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6840 on: August 02, 2021, 06:13:28 PM »
            Just curious... How often are chutes re-packed in order to be "legal" ?  (not sure of the correct terminology)
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6841 on: August 02, 2021, 06:36:55 PM »
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            Just curious... How often are chutes re-packed in order to be "legal" ?  (not sure of the correct terminology)

In 1971, I think it was ever 60 days for civilian and ex-military parachutes.  With more modern parachute designs, fabrics, and experience with longer repacking times, plus bitching and bellyaching from some organizations,  I believe the legal requirement today may be as long as ever six months.
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6842 on: August 02, 2021, 06:46:04 PM »
            Any idea how many civilian riggers were working around the Seattle area in 1970? (riggers that would have been certified to pack a chute such as this?)
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6843 on: August 02, 2021, 08:01:50 PM »
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          Sorry for the delay in response.... Having a hard time processing this... Dudeman17, you mean you rode your reserve more than one time? (you also 377?)    crazy S.O.B.s    LOL!!    You guys (any of you that have had to cut away your main in order to deploy your reserve) must be endowed with the biggest brass gonads known to man! Just the thought of cutting away your main terrifies me! And then to think that you've done it more than once.... Blows me away..

I think I've had about 5 on personal sport gear, and I've had a fair handful on tandems. But I think you're looking at it wrong. Having a reserve ride is not an 'OhMyGod!' near death experience. It's kind of like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day. It's actually kind of fun, you get to pull more handles and play with more of your gear.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6844 on: August 02, 2021, 11:22:40 PM »
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          Sorry for the delay in response.... Having a hard time processing this... Dudeman17, you mean you rode your reserve more than one time? (you also 377?)    crazy S.O.B.s    LOL!!    You guys (any of you that have had to cut away your main in order to deploy your reserve) must be endowed with the biggest brass gonads known to man! Just the thought of cutting away your main terrifies me! And then to think that you've done it more than once.... Blows me away..

I think I've had about 5 on personal sport gear, and I've had a fair handful on tandems. But I think you're looking at it wrong. Having a reserve ride is not an 'OhMyGod!' near death experience. It's kind of like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day. It's actually kind of fun, you get to pull more handles and play with more of your gear.

funny. flat tire!  8)
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6845 on: August 03, 2021, 12:14:20 AM »
              You are probably right Dudeman17. Looking at it from a different perspective might be helpful. I know now (from discussions with you and 377 and others) a lot of my earlier preconceptions about skydivers to be misconceptions. I always bought into that swashbuckling , thrillseeking, push it to the limit, adrenaline addicted, devil may care, risk taking type of personality as being the norm , as far as skydiving people go. It has been eye opening to hear how meticulous and well planned your preparations are.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6846 on: August 03, 2021, 07:40:06 AM »
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              You are probably right Dudeman17. Looking at it from a different perspective might be helpful. I know now (from discussions with you and 377 and others) a lot of my earlier preconceptions about skydivers to be misconceptions. I always bought into that swashbuckling , thrillseeking, push it to the limit, adrenaline addicted, devil may care, risk taking type of personality as being the norm , as far as skydiving people go. It has been eye opening to hear how meticulous and well planned your preparations are.

Were there any posts on what the rigger cards looked like in a chute that was on a military plane (mainly pilot or aircrew, but even an airborne soldier at the time)?  I've communicated with former Navy pilots of recon aircraft and they said that the aircrew had basically reserve type parachutes hanging in the aircraft, and that they wore harnesses so all they had to do was grab the rig and jump.  I'd have to find my old emails and see if I can find the guys and ask them about the parachute packing procedures.  They did send me pics of the inside of those planes (Beechcraft model something, I'd have to look).  These were recon planes of the 1940s and 50s, not the SR-71 type jet, etc.

There are theories that Cooper was former military and practiced skydiving to get re-acquainted.  If he was in the service during WWII, then 15 years later he may have been rusty.  So maybe he goes to Elsinore and jumps, but does not check out the rigger cards. Then he gets on 305 and because he likes to act like he knows everything, he does not need to look at the cards. But, is that because he learned about the cards in the service or at a skydive center?
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6847 on: August 03, 2021, 01:57:18 PM »
        Would the military "pingers" be located inside the packed chutes? In other words, would they be visible without deploying or unpacking the chute?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6848 on: August 03, 2021, 02:43:40 PM »
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        Would the military "pingers" be located inside the packed chutes? In other words, would they be visible without deploying or unpacking the chute?

I can't make a positive statement one way or the other on this point since I have never seen an unpacked military emergency parachute with a pinger.  However, my guess is that the pinger is going to be inside the container and under the canopy pack.

I have an NB-6 container and it has at least one small pocket sewn to the inside of the container.  My understanding is that this small pocket contained a very rudimentary survival kit such as fish hooks, snare wire, and matches or a means to start a fire.  But a full-blown survival kit would probably be a seat pack and include a life raft plus more advanced survival gear items.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6849 on: August 03, 2021, 07:54:03 PM »
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I always bought into that swashbuckling , thrillseeking, push it to the limit, adrenaline addicted, devil may care, risk taking type of personality as being the norm , as far as skydiving people go.

There are some jumpers, usually the younger, newer ones, who seem to like that there is that public perception. But the reality is, within the ranks, it's more like a bunch of overgrown kids playing with the stupidest toys we've ever had.

However - (these days one of the leading causes of injury and death is people mis-landing fully open parachutes). But in earlier days, when there were more instances of people bouncing, as in terminal impact with nothing out, the reaction some of us had to that was to pull low. 'Take it to the dirt', 'hum it', 'ground rush is a gas but it sure ain't practical'...  But it wasn't an outward 'derring-do', it was more of an internal fascination - something I called 'the sickness'. And if you wanna talk about the earliest days of base jumping....
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6850 on: August 03, 2021, 08:48:55 PM »
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...Then he gets on 305 and because he likes to act like he knows everything, he does not need to look at the cards...?


Somebody looked at the cards - at least one, the packing card with the serial number SN 60-9797 written on it. But, somehow during the skyjacking that packing card was transferred from the chute on Cooper's back to someplace on 305, maybe on, in, or near the not-used back chute. Then in Reno, a skydiving expert from the National Guard found it and decided - rightly or not - that it was for the "not-used" chute. Then that card was placed somewhere else, possibly put in an FBI evidence envelope, and eventually made it way somewhere - possibly the FBI FO in Las Vegas - and it may still be there today.

Then in 2011, the packing card known as SN 226 was discovered and photograph in Hayden's "not-used" chute. But packing card SN 60-9797 was not found on that chute.

That's what we know about the packing cards, as far as I know at this point.

My conclusion, and possibly that of Fly Jack as well, is that there were two packing cards for back chutes on 305: SN 226 and SN 60-9797. That means both chutes were Pioneers, both were Hayden's, and Cossey is lying about it all.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 03:07:20 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6851 on: August 03, 2021, 09:18:00 PM »
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Cossey is lying about it all.
This would obviously bring the parachute that Cossey told the FBI wasn't his back into play, correct?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6852 on: August 03, 2021, 10:32:09 PM »
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Cossey is lying about it all.
This would obviously bring the parachute that Cossey told the FBI wasn't his back into play, correct?

I don't understand the question, Chauc. What parachute did Cossey tell the FBI that it wasn't his?

As I understand the current information, none of Cossey's back chutes were onboard 305.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 10:33:10 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6853 on: August 03, 2021, 10:45:30 PM »
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Cossey is lying about it all.
This would obviously bring the parachute that Cossey told the FBI wasn't his back into play, correct?

I don't understand the question, Chauc. What parachute did Cossey tell the FBI that it wasn't his?

As I understand the current information, none of Cossey's back chutes were onboard 305.
This:

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Perhaps I am not articulating myself well. There was a parachute found, I believe in Amboy,  and Larry Carr brought Cossey in to verify it. Cossey said it wasn't one of the ones that he delivered.

If Cossey was lying, then it's possible that Amboy chute could still be from Cooper, yes?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6854 on: August 03, 2021, 10:59:42 PM »
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...Then he gets on 305 and because he likes to act like he knows everything, he does not need to look at the cards...?


Somebody looked at the cards - at least one, the packing card with the serial number SN 60-9797 written on it. But, somehow during the skyjacking that packing card was transferred from the chute on Cooper's back to someplace on 305, maybe on, in, or near the not-used back chute. Then in Reno, a skydiving expert from the National Guard found it and decided - rightly or not - that it was for the "not-used" chute. Then that card was placed somewhere else, possibly put in an FBI evidence envelope, and eventually made it way somewhere - possibly the FBI FO in Las Vegas - and it may still be there today.

Then in 2021, the packing card known as SN 226 was discovered and photograph in Hayden's "not-used" chute. But packing card SN 60-9797 was not found on that chute.

That's what we know about the packing cards, as far as I know at this point.

My conclusion, and possibly that of Fly Jack as well, is that there were two packing cards for back chutes on 305: SN 226 and SN 60-9797. That means both chutes were Pioneers, both were Hayden's, and Cossey is lying about it all.

The chutes were as described by Cossey in the 302s. There were not two Pioneers delivered to DBC. This all much ado about absolutely nothing.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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