Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1641003 times)

Offline dice

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2775 on: July 12, 2018, 12:18:37 PM »
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It's also possible that there were accomplices who didn't get paid what they were supposed to

VERY unlikely...   those types would anonymously tip off cops of Cooper, as retribution. They would NOT keep it quiet....nobody does when getting stiffed.

If Cooper straight up stiffed an accomplice, I agree that the accomplice would probably tip off the FBI anonymously.  Lots of people did tip off the authorities anonymously, though.  It could be that the tip was not considered reliable.  Also, in a scenario where Cooper didn't end up with the money either (e.g. Cooper dies, or the bag doesn't stay tied to him), I would think that accomplices would want to avoid the risk of even an "anonymous" call (assuming that they believed that he died, or that the bag came loose).

I didn't really have an opinion on whether any of the stewardesses were in on it until I read your post below.  I hadn't really thought about the fact that there isn't really anything that a stewardess would be able to do for Cooper other than what she would normally do in a hijacking.    That's a good point.

You guys are dancing around this but haven't put all the pieces together..

For almost 50 years people have been trying keys in the lock but it doesn't open..

This unlocks the door. We just have to open it.

It doesn't involve any specific suspect or prior contact (collusion).

Way to dodge the question Flyjack... :bravo:      don't make me go to the dark side here :)... but THAT was a bullshit answer...  if you wanna push your suspect, then it is subject to scrutiny, and if you are implying Mucklow was in on it, then spell it out exactly, instead of these riddles.
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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2776 on: July 12, 2018, 12:39:25 PM »
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Quote
It's also possible that there were accomplices who didn't get paid what they were supposed to

VERY unlikely...   those types would anonymously tip off cops of Cooper, as retribution. They would NOT keep it quiet....nobody does when getting stiffed.

If Cooper straight up stiffed an accomplice, I agree that the accomplice would probably tip off the FBI anonymously.  Lots of people did tip off the authorities anonymously, though.  It could be that the tip was not considered reliable.  Also, in a scenario where Cooper didn't end up with the money either (e.g. Cooper dies, or the bag doesn't stay tied to him), I would think that accomplices would want to avoid the risk of even an "anonymous" call (assuming that they believed that he died, or that the bag came loose).

I didn't really have an opinion on whether any of the stewardesses were in on it until I read your post below.  I hadn't really thought about the fact that there isn't really anything that a stewardess would be able to do for Cooper other than what she would normally do in a hijacking.    That's a good point.

You guys are dancing around this but haven't put all the pieces together..

For almost 50 years people have been trying keys in the lock but it doesn't open..

This unlocks the door. We just have to open it.

It doesn't involve any specific suspect or prior contact (collusion).

Way to dodge the question Flyjack... :bravo:      don't make me go to the dark side here :)... but THAT was a bullshit answer...  if you wanna push your suspect, then it is subject to scrutiny, and if you are implying Mucklow was in on it, then spell it out exactly, instead of these riddles.

How can you call it BS when you don't know what it is, this is why I hold back info, dealing with out of context comments and personal attacks like that.

Hahneman is my #1 suspect, no secret but this has ZERO to do with him specifically. It applies to any suspect, known or unknown. NO prior contact, NO collusion, NO love affair nonsense, get it. It is all there for anyone to figure out.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2777 on: July 12, 2018, 12:43:56 PM »
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April 12, 1965

FROM COMMERCIAL TO MILITARY— A Boeing 727 takes part in a test demonstrating its use as a military air drop assault transport. Here one of the simulated cargo loads leaves plane as it flies at low speed and altitude.

Newspaper pic..  looking for more on this event.

Takeaway is - Because it was in the media, 727 air drops were not a secret.

From FBI files - checked everyone associated with the test Boeing drops and concluded unrelated.

Boeing test drops differed from NORJAK.

speed - 125 knots

flaps - 25 degrees

alt - 10,000 ft



NORJAK

Gear Down

Flaps - 15 degrees

Aft Door open AND Air Stairs Down

Cooper thought air Stairs controlled by pilot.

On airdrop missions, where many parachutists or cargo pallets are being dropped, you want to go as slow as possible to avoid scattering the landings all over creation, so a high flap setting is used. Not so important when a single item is being dropped. On our jumpships some jumpers exit solo at 3500 ft to practice canopy work. They get a lower price. Their exits are often made with no flaps. The same jumpship now up at 13,500 ft, puts down at least 15 degrees of flaps to get a slow exit speed for a group of 12.

377
 

Offline dice

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2778 on: July 12, 2018, 12:46:09 PM »
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Quote
It's also possible that there were accomplices who didn't get paid what they were supposed to

VERY unlikely...   those types would anonymously tip off cops of Cooper, as retribution. They would NOT keep it quiet....nobody does when getting stiffed.

If Cooper straight up stiffed an accomplice, I agree that the accomplice would probably tip off the FBI anonymously.  Lots of people did tip off the authorities anonymously, though.  It could be that the tip was not considered reliable.  Also, in a scenario where Cooper didn't end up with the money either (e.g. Cooper dies, or the bag doesn't stay tied to him), I would think that accomplices would want to avoid the risk of even an "anonymous" call (assuming that they believed that he died, or that the bag came loose).

I didn't really have an opinion on whether any of the stewardesses were in on it until I read your post below.  I hadn't really thought about the fact that there isn't really anything that a stewardess would be able to do for Cooper other than what she would normally do in a hijacking.    That's a good point.

You guys are dancing around this but haven't put all the pieces together..

For almost 50 years people have been trying keys in the lock but it doesn't open..

This unlocks the door. We just have to open it.

It doesn't involve any specific suspect or prior contact (collusion).

Way to dodge the question Flyjack... :bravo:      don't make me go to the dark side here :)... but THAT was a bullshit answer...  if you wanna push your suspect, then it is subject to scrutiny, and if you are implying Mucklow was in on it, then spell it out exactly, instead of these riddles.

How can you call it BS when you don't know what it is, this is why I hold back info, dealing with out of context comments and personal attacks like that.

Hahneman is my #1 suspect, no secret but this has ZERO to do with him specifically. It applies to any suspect, known or unknown. NO prior contact, NO collusion, NO love affair nonsense, get it. It is all there for anyone to figure out.

Personal attacks?  That isn't a personal attack at all.  Are you kidding?  I didn't say YOU were....      Your "non-answer" was teasing, and bullshit... You know very well I like your suspect, and you know very well I am intrigued by your other "dental" guy, and I asked you more but won't say....
 
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2779 on: July 12, 2018, 12:52:04 PM »
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Quote
It's also possible that there were accomplices who didn't get paid what they were supposed to

VERY unlikely...   those types would anonymously tip off cops of Cooper, as retribution. They would NOT keep it quiet....nobody does when getting stiffed.

If Cooper straight up stiffed an accomplice, I agree that the accomplice would probably tip off the FBI anonymously.  Lots of people did tip off the authorities anonymously, though.  It could be that the tip was not considered reliable.  Also, in a scenario where Cooper didn't end up with the money either (e.g. Cooper dies, or the bag doesn't stay tied to him), I would think that accomplices would want to avoid the risk of even an "anonymous" call (assuming that they believed that he died, or that the bag came loose).

I didn't really have an opinion on whether any of the stewardesses were in on it until I read your post below.  I hadn't really thought about the fact that there isn't really anything that a stewardess would be able to do for Cooper other than what she would normally do in a hijacking.    That's a good point.

You guys are dancing around this but haven't put all the pieces together..

For almost 50 years people have been trying keys in the lock but it doesn't open..

This unlocks the door. We just have to open it.

It doesn't involve any specific suspect or prior contact (collusion).

Way to dodge the question Flyjack... :bravo:      don't make me go to the dark side here :)... but THAT was a bullshit answer...  if you wanna push your suspect, then it is subject to scrutiny, and if you are implying Mucklow was in on it, then spell it out exactly, instead of these riddles.

How can you call it BS when you don't know what it is, this is why I hold back info, dealing with out of context comments and personal attacks like that.

Hahneman is my #1 suspect, no secret but this has ZERO to do with him specifically. It applies to any suspect, known or unknown. NO prior contact, NO collusion, NO love affair nonsense, get it. It is all there for anyone to figure out.

Personal attacks?  That isn't a personal attack at all.  Are you kidding?  I didn't say YOU were....      Your "non-answer" was teasing, and bullshit... You know very well I like your suspect, and you know very well I am intrigued by your other "dental" guy, and I asked you more but won't say....

It wasn't a BS answer, I was trying to point you guys in the right direction, away from some "collusion" theory and a specific suspect.

What I am looking at involves NO specific suspect or any collusion.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2780 on: July 12, 2018, 12:57:03 PM »
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Stumbled on this... haven't seen it before.

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April 12, 1965

FROM COMMERCIAL TO MILITARY— A Boeing 727 takes part in a test demonstrating its use as a military air drop assault transport. Here one of the simulated cargo loads leaves plane as it flies at low speed and altitude.

Newspaper pic..  looking for more on this event.

Takeaway is - Because it was in the media, 727 air drops were not a secret.

From FBI files - checked everyone associated with the test Boeing drops and concluded unrelated.

Boeing test drops differed from NORJAK.

speed - 125 knots

flaps - 25 degrees

alt - 10,000 ft



NORJAK

Gear Down

Flaps - 15 degrees

Aft Door open AND Air Stairs Down

Cooper thought air Stairs controlled by pilot.

On airdrop missions, where many parachutists or cargo pallets are being dropped, you want to go as slow as possible to avoid scattering the landings all over creation, so a high flap setting is used. Not so important when a single item is being dropped. On our jumpships some jumpers exit solo at 3500 ft to practice canopy work. They get a lower price. Their exits are often made with no flaps. The same jumpship now up at 13,500 ft, puts down at least 15 degrees of flaps to get a slow exit speed for a group of 12.

377

I was just restated the conclusion from the FBI doc.. RE:Boeing 727 drop test documentation

They researched everyone involved and found nothing. They also thought that the differences in the configurations suggested no connection..  Were they correct - no idea.
 

Offline sry828

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2781 on: July 12, 2018, 01:20:02 PM »
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Quote
It's also possible that there were accomplices who didn't get paid what they were supposed to

VERY unlikely...   those types would anonymously tip off cops of Cooper, as retribution. They would NOT keep it quiet....nobody does when getting stiffed.

If Cooper straight up stiffed an accomplice, I agree that the accomplice would probably tip off the FBI anonymously.  Lots of people did tip off the authorities anonymously, though.  It could be that the tip was not considered reliable.


Sry,   Think of the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."  No one is angrier than a woman who has been rejected in love, and this also equally applies to someone getting ripped off, especially a big caper like this... Think of Morrie in GoodFellas, although he ended up dead, you could see his anger, and it'd have continued until paid.......   a person scammed like this, the ego would not allow that synapse to exist and for them to get away with it, and would continue to tip off until they were certain the authorities knew, if their first attempt didn't work.

I get your point.

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the $200k ask.  I know that McCoy reportedly told people that Cooper should have asked for more.  If $200k in 1971 was worth more like $1.2 million in today's dollars, how much could Cooper have been confident the authorities could gather in the necessary time?  I don't think that the average bank branch has $1.2 million in non-sequential $20 bills on an average day.  I don't know enough about banking to be confident in that, though.
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2782 on: July 12, 2018, 01:34:41 PM »
It’s just my personal opinion but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to consider that any of the crew was involved ! I also believe that putting Tina and others under the microscope so to speak is a big part of the reason they have made themselves reclusive! How would you feel ?
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2783 on: July 12, 2018, 03:57:31 PM »
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Stumbled on this... haven't seen it before.

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April 12, 1965

FROM COMMERCIAL TO MILITARY— A Boeing 727 takes part in a test demonstrating its use as a military air drop assault transport. Here one of the simulated cargo loads leaves plane as it flies at low speed and altitude.

Newspaper pic..  looking for more on this event.

Takeaway is - Because it was in the media, 727 air drops were not a secret.

From FBI files - checked everyone associated with the test Boeing drops and concluded unrelated.

Boeing test drops differed from NORJAK.

speed - 125 knots

flaps - 25 degrees

alt - 10,000 ft



NORJAK

Gear Down

Flaps - 15 degrees

Aft Door open AND Air Stairs Down

Cooper thought air Stairs controlled by pilot.

On airdrop missions, where many parachutists or cargo pallets are being dropped, you want to go as slow as possible to avoid scattering the landings all over creation, so a high flap setting is used. Not so important when a single item is being dropped. On our jumpships some jumpers exit solo at 3500 ft to practice canopy work. They get a lower price. Their exits are often made with no flaps. The same jumpship now up at 13,500 ft, puts down at least 15 degrees of flaps to get a slow exit speed for a group of 12.

377

I was just restated the conclusion from the FBI doc.. RE:Boeing 727 drop test documentation

They researched everyone involved and found nothing. They also thought that the differences in the configurations suggested no connection..  Were they correct - no idea.

I agree Flyjack, can't really reach any firm conclusions based on that flight config data. The FBI screwed up a lot but they also did a lot of things right: investigating possible Boeing connections, looking at military special ops communities, investigating skydivers, etc.  The one thing that absolutely baffles me is the scant attention paid to the tie. TK and Al, with their ancient scanning electron microscope and spectrometer gear, did a FAR better job than Quantico did. I'm proud of them and disappointed in the feds on this particular part of the investigation.

377
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2784 on: July 12, 2018, 04:09:41 PM »
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Stumbled on this... haven't seen it before.

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April 12, 1965

FROM COMMERCIAL TO MILITARY— A Boeing 727 takes part in a test demonstrating its use as a military air drop assault transport. Here one of the simulated cargo loads leaves plane as it flies at low speed and altitude.

Newspaper pic..  looking for more on this event.

Takeaway is - Because it was in the media, 727 air drops were not a secret.

From FBI files - checked everyone associated with the test Boeing drops and concluded unrelated.

Boeing test drops differed from NORJAK.

speed - 125 knots

flaps - 25 degrees

alt - 10,000 ft



NORJAK

Gear Down

Flaps - 15 degrees

Aft Door open AND Air Stairs Down

Cooper thought air Stairs controlled by pilot.

On airdrop missions, where many parachutists or cargo pallets are being dropped, you want to go as slow as possible to avoid scattering the landings all over creation, so a high flap setting is used. Not so important when a single item is being dropped. On our jumpships some jumpers exit solo at 3500 ft to practice canopy work. They get a lower price. Their exits are often made with no flaps. The same jumpship now up at 13,500 ft, puts down at least 15 degrees of flaps to get a slow exit speed for a group of 12.

377

I was just restated the conclusion from the FBI doc.. RE:Boeing 727 drop test documentation

They researched everyone involved and found nothing. They also thought that the differences in the configurations suggested no connection..  Were they correct - no idea.

I agree Flyjack, can't really reach any firm conclusions based on that flight config data. The FBI screwed up a lot but they also did a lot of things right: investigating possible Boeing connections, looking at military special ops communities, investigating skydivers, etc.  The one thing that absolutely baffles me is the scant attention paid to the tie. TK and Al, with their ancient scanning electron microscope and spectrometer gear, did a FAR better job than Quantico did. I'm proud of them and disappointed in the feds on this particular part of the investigation.

377

Not sure if you caught my post on page 184, a 727 drop test was reported in the media.. that opens up wide the potential universe of suspects with knowledge.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2785 on: July 12, 2018, 04:47:47 PM »
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...I was trying to point you guys in the right direction...


I just LOVE being pointed in the right direction. AH....
 
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2786 on: July 13, 2018, 07:06:43 AM »
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It’s just my personal opinion but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to consider that any of the crew was involved ! I also believe that putting Tina and others under the microscope so to speak is a big part of the reason they have made themselves reclusive! How would you feel ?



Finally, a voice of reason speaks.  I've been away for quite a while -- it's interesting what the conversations have become.  Meyer
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2787 on: July 13, 2018, 09:55:38 PM »
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...I was trying to point you guys in the right direction...


I just LOVE being pointed in the right direction. AH....

Schaffner said to Geoff Gray when he asked her why Tina refused to discuss the hijacking. Schaffner replied: "She's hiding something..." But Schaffner couldn't say what it was.

DING DING DING..
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2788 on: July 13, 2018, 10:35:49 PM »
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...I was trying to point you guys in the right direction...


I just LOVE being pointed in the right direction. AH....

Schaffner said to Geoff Gray when he asked her why Tina refused to discuss the hijacking. Schaffner replied: "She's hiding something..." But Schaffner couldn't say what it was.

DING DING DING..

Let me see now ! Schaffer said “ She’s hiding something “ so I guess we now know that it’s a fact that Tina is hiding something ? Seriously ? You ACTUALLY believe that ? WOW !  I’m glad you’re not on a jury !
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2789 on: July 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM »
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...I was trying to point you guys in the right direction...


I just LOVE being pointed in the right direction. AH....

Schaffner said to Geoff Gray when he asked her why Tina refused to discuss the hijacking. Schaffner replied: "She's hiding something..." But Schaffner couldn't say what it was.

DING DING DING..

Let me see now ! Schaffer said “ She’s hiding something “ so I guess we now know that it’s a fact that Tina is hiding something ? Seriously ? You ACTUALLY believe that ? WOW !  I’m glad you’re not on a jury !

YES, I believe that, not from Schaffner's opinion but from the evidence...