Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.4%)
50% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (37.9%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 723850 times)

Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7725 on: February 23, 2022, 06:31:07 PM »
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McCoy’s awareness of 243.0 MHz beacons possibly being hidden in the rigs delivered was evidenced by his jettisoning of an FBI supplied rig to confuse chase aircraft. The ruse worked. Also evidenced by his bringing his own rig. The NORJAK guy seemed totally oblivious about the risk of hidden pinger beacons.

To me this says two different people. McCoy being an ex military pilot knew all about pingers and likely heard a few on Guard channel while flying in Vietnam.

377

Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

But I still don’t think McCoy was Cooper….
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7726 on: February 23, 2022, 09:18:09 PM »
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Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

He opened one of the reserves in order to scavenge lines. If he had opened one of Hayden's bailout rigs, unless he was a rigger and had rigging tools with him, it would be highly unlikely that he would have been able to re-close it suitably for use.
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7727 on: March 01, 2022, 01:18:04 AM »
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Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

He opened one of the reserves in order to scavenge lines. If he had opened one of Hayden's bailout rigs, unless he was a rigger and had rigging tools with him, it would be highly unlikely that he would have been able to re-close it suitably for use.

interesting point.
Then again
Assume whuffo. You need lines.
You have 4 rigs.
You are going to jump with one of them.
You apparently know that all 4 rigs have lines.
Which of the remaining 3 rigs do you open? You're not going to use any of them, so why would you pick one over another?

You could say "random"
Or you could say it was easier to open the reserve.
or you could say he was half-thinking maybe the reserve could hold the money and somehow attach to himself?

Or you could say he was a cheap jumper at his core, and couldn't bear to destroy a perfectly good back rig :)
i.e. destroy the older no-good reserves...almost an instinctual bias if not whuffo.

I mean, would a whuffo think the line length varied in reserve vs back rig? Me I'd guess the reserve had shorter lines.
Did it?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7728 on: March 01, 2022, 05:50:45 AM »
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Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

He opened one of the reserves in order to scavenge lines. If he had opened one of Hayden's bailout rigs, unless he was a rigger and had rigging tools with him, it would be highly unlikely that he would have been able to re-close it suitably for use.

interesting point.
Then again
Assume whuffo. You need lines.
You have 4 rigs.
You are going to jump with one of them.
You apparently know that all 4 rigs have lines.
Which of the remaining 3 rigs do you open? You're not going to use any of them, so why would you pick one over another?

You could say "random"
Or you could say it was easier to open the reserve.
or you could say he was half-thinking maybe the reserve could hold the money and somehow attach to himself?

Or you could say he was a cheap jumper at his core, and couldn't bear to destroy a perfectly good back rig :)
i.e. destroy the older no-good reserves...almost an instinctual bias if not whuffo.

I mean, would a whuffo think the line length varied in reserve vs back rig? Me I'd guess the reserve had shorter lines.
Did it?

except a reserve is a reserve, not a main. assumption is reserves are expendable, probably not needed. so you open a reserve before any main.

I tend to think some people are over thinking this - Cooper's reasoning is not your reasoning.  ;)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7729 on: March 01, 2022, 04:40:33 PM »
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I tend to think some people are over thinking this - Cooper's reasoning is not your reasoning.  ;)

You could say either of these sentences, and they both make no sense.
1) Cooper's reasoning is not my reasoning.
2) Cooper's reasoning is my reasoning.

Basically, it's a silly thing to say anything about Cooper's "reasoning" ..or even the length of his fingernails.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7730 on: March 01, 2022, 05:22:55 PM »
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I tend to think some people are over thinking this - Cooper's reasoning is not your reasoning.  ;)

You could say either of these sentences, and they both make no sense.
1) Cooper's reasoning is not my reasoning.
2) Cooper's reasoning is my reasoning.

Basically, it's a silly thing to say anything about Cooper's "reasoning" ..or even the length of his fingernails.

You brought Cooper's reasoning up. You suggested his choice of chutes, or his method of choosing/selecting chutes, suggested he was a wuffo - that his choices were the choices a wuffo would make . . . . 

Your foundation for all of this I guess is some claim you know what wuffos do and do not do ....

As usual Im totally lost .......... and dont care!    Arguing for the sake of arguing is not one of my passions.  :rofl:

« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 05:27:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7731 on: March 01, 2022, 07:17:50 PM »
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Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

He opened one of the reserves in order to scavenge lines. If he had opened one of Hayden's bailout rigs, unless he was a rigger and had rigging tools with him, it would be highly unlikely that he would have been able to re-close it suitably for use.

interesting point.
Then again
Assume whuffo. You need lines.
You have 4 rigs.
You are going to jump with one of them.
You apparently know that all 4 rigs have lines.
Which of the remaining 3 rigs do you open? You're not going to use any of them, so why would you pick one over another?

You could say "random"
Or you could say it was easier to open the reserve.
or you could say he was half-thinking maybe the reserve could hold the money and somehow attach to himself?

Or you could say he was a cheap jumper at his core, and couldn't bear to destroy a perfectly good back rig :)
i.e. destroy the older no-good reserves...almost an instinctual bias if not whuffo.

I mean, would a whuffo think the line length varied in reserve vs back rig? Me I'd guess the reserve had shorter lines.
Did it?

It might somewhat depend on what he knows about parachutes. Tina said he declined the instructions and looked like he knew what he was doing putting it on. Also, he asked for 'two backs and two fronts'. Sounds to me like he's asking for two complete rigs, mains and reserves. Best evidence suggests that what he gets are two front reserves (one a dummy?) and the two Hayden bailout rigs. As a matter of point, all four of those ARE reserves. Any packed rig would be equally easy to open, you just pull the ripcord. If he sees that the two back rigs are bailout rigs, and thus do not have the D-rings to attach the front reserves, then that makes the front reserves unusable. So those would be the obvious choice for scavenging lines. Not sure about comparative line lengths, but I wouldn't think that they'd differ by much, and any of them should be long enough for his use. Except perhaps the dummy reserve. Since that one is gone, we don't know what he did with it. By any normal protocols, that should be clearly marked. If he had opened that one first, he might have found the lines daisy-chained. That normally shouldn't be hard to undo, but they may have been tacked together to prevent them from coming undone during normal use. And they may have been shortened for repacking convenience.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7732 on: March 01, 2022, 11:24:14 PM »
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Copper could have checked the chutes, right?  We know that he opened them at least partially, and then he had time alone after that.

He opened one of the reserves in order to scavenge lines. If he had opened one of Hayden's bailout rigs, unless he was a rigger and had rigging tools with him, it would be highly unlikely that he would have been able to re-close it suitably for use.

interesting point.
Then again
Assume whuffo. You need lines.
You have 4 rigs.
You are going to jump with one of them.
You apparently know that all 4 rigs have lines.
Which of the remaining 3 rigs do you open? You're not going to use any of them, so why would you pick one over another?

You could say "random"
Or you could say it was easier to open the reserve.
or you could say he was half-thinking maybe the reserve could hold the money and somehow attach to himself?

Or you could say he was a cheap jumper at his core, and couldn't bear to destroy a perfectly good back rig :)
i.e. destroy the older no-good reserves...almost an instinctual bias if not whuffo.

I mean, would a whuffo think the line length varied in reserve vs back rig? Me I'd guess the reserve had shorter lines.
Did it?

It might somewhat depend on what he knows about parachutes. Tina said he declined the instructions and looked like he knew what he was doing putting it on. Also, he asked for 'two backs and two fronts'. Sounds to me like he's asking for two complete rigs, mains and reserves. Best evidence suggests that what he gets are two front reserves (one a dummy?) and the two Hayden bailout rigs. As a matter of point, all four of those ARE reserves. Any packed rig would be equally easy to open, you just pull the ripcord. If he sees that the two back rigs are bailout rigs, and thus do not have the D-rings to attach the front reserves, then that makes the front reserves unusable. So those would be the obvious choice for scavenging lines. Not sure about comparative line lengths, but I wouldn't think that they'd differ by much, and any of them should be long enough for his use. Except perhaps the dummy reserve. Since that one is gone, we don't know what he did with it. By any normal protocols, that should be clearly marked. If he had opened that one first, he might have found the lines daisy-chained. That normally shouldn't be hard to undo, but they may have been tacked together to prevent them from coming undone during normal use. And they may have been shortened for repacking convenience.

What I dont understand is why anyone who might be challenged, would put a chute on with nowhere to go in cramped quarters no less! Anything that encumbers him physically makes him less agile, more vulnerable, and unable to defend himself. He was so worried about sky marshals so he puts a chute on .... why not just tie his shoes together too! Something doesnt add up. Maybe he thought the threat of the bomb gained him freedom from attack ? Consider that several people just walked on the plane free to travel - Hancock for her purse for one - a marksman could have dispatched him quickly and ended the drama while he's playing with lines and money and encumbered by a backpack on his body ...    ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 11:27:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7733 on: March 02, 2022, 12:00:08 AM »
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It might somewhat depend on what he knows about parachutes. Tina said he declined the instructions and looked like he knew what he was doing putting it on. Also, he asked for 'two backs and two fronts'. Sounds to me like he's asking for two complete rigs, mains and reserves. Best evidence suggests that what he gets are two front reserves (one a dummy?) and the two Hayden bailout rigs. As a matter of point, all four of those ARE reserves. Any packed rig would be equally easy to open, you just pull the ripcord. If he sees that the two back rigs are bailout rigs, and thus do not have the D-rings to attach the front reserves, then that makes the front reserves unusable. So those would be the obvious choice for scavenging lines. Not sure about comparative line lengths, but I wouldn't think that they'd differ by much, and any of them should be long enough for his use. Except perhaps the dummy reserve. Since that one is gone, we don't know what he did with it. By any normal protocols, that should be clearly marked. If he had opened that one first, he might have found the lines daisy-chained. That normally shouldn't be hard to undo, but they may have been tacked together to prevent them from coming undone during normal use. And they may have been shortened for repacking convenience.

hey dudeman, "he might have found the lines daisy-chained"
you're the first one I can remember saying that maybe after training with a dummy reserve at Issaquah, it's possible the reserve was stored with the lines daisy chained (no reason to leave them loose..it's not being repacked normally)

I find that interesting because the only other person that has said something like that was Sheridan Peterson. He says he knew that based on personal experience at Issaquah. Always wondered if that was true.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7734 on: March 02, 2022, 02:58:29 AM »
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What I dont understand is why anyone who might be challenged, would put a chute on with nowhere to go in cramped quarters no less! Anything that encumbers him physically makes him less agile, more vulnerable, and unable to defend himself. He was so worried about sky marshals so he puts a chute on .... why not just tie his shoes together too! Something doesnt add up. Maybe he thought the threat of the bomb gained him freedom from attack ? Consider that several people just walked on the plane free to travel - Hancock for her purse for one - a marksman could have dispatched him quickly and ended the drama while he's playing with lines and money and encumbered by a backpack on his body ...    ;)

Sky marshals blend in as passengers. Weren't all the passengers (and potential sky marshals) off the plane by the time he did all that? Was he cutting lines off that reserve and putting on the rig before they took off? As for marksmen or an agent rushing up the stairs to shoot him, that could happen either way. If a bullet hit him in the back, maybe the rig might slow it down?


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hey dudeman, "he might have found the lines daisy-chained"
you're the first one I can remember saying that maybe after training with a dummy reserve at Issaquah, it's possible the reserve was stored with the lines daisy chained (no reason to leave them loose..it's not being repacked normally)

I find that interesting because the only other person that has said something like that was Sheridan Peterson. He says he knew that based on personal experience at Issaquah. Always wondered if that was true.

I remember you saying that about SP, I think that's where it stuck in my mind as a possibility. Anything that would make that dummy easier to repack between uses they might be likely to do.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7735 on: March 02, 2022, 04:47:21 AM »
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What I dont understand is why anyone who might be challenged, would put a chute on with nowhere to go in cramped quarters no less! Anything that encumbers him physically makes him less agile, more vulnerable, and unable to defend himself. He was so worried about sky marshals so he puts a chute on .... why not just tie his shoes together too! Something doesnt add up. Maybe he thought the threat of the bomb gained him freedom from attack ? Consider that several people just walked on the plane free to travel - Hancock for her purse for one - a marksman could have dispatched him quickly and ended the drama while he's playing with lines and money and encumbered by a backpack on his body ...    ;)

Sky marshals blend in as passengers. Weren't all the passengers (and potential sky marshals) off the plane by the time he did all that? Was he cutting lines off that reserve and putting on the rig before they took off? As for marksmen or an agent rushing up the stairs to shoot him, that could happen either way. If a bullet hit him in the back, maybe the rig might slow it down?


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hey dudeman, "he might have found the lines daisy-chained"
you're the first one I can remember saying that maybe after training with a dummy reserve at Issaquah, it's possible the reserve was stored with the lines daisy chained (no reason to leave them loose..it's not being repacked normally)

I find that interesting because the only other person that has said something like that was Sheridan Peterson. He says he knew that based on personal experience at Issaquah. Always wondered if that was true.

I remember you saying that about SP, I think that's where it stuck in my mind as a possibility. Anything that would make that dummy easier to repack between uses they might be likely to do.

no tactical person is going to aim for the back .... but at critical areas that end life and/or sever neuro-muscular function of the body (limbs, arms, fingers...)
Cooper allowed people to come back on the plane at the front stairs and they were suddenly there ... all after passengers had departed. Given his original concern over sky marshals or anyone interfering/confronting him, I find it unusual he left one obvious entry option open. What if a female agent had dressed up and gone back for Hancock's purse ? Fact is Nyrop told everyone to cooperate. That closed a few options for ending this. Nyrop didnt want his plane shot up ....         
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7736 on: March 02, 2022, 03:54:59 PM »
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I remember you saying that about SP, I think that's where it stuck in my mind as a possibility. Anything that would make that dummy easier to repack between uses they might be likely to do.

It's possible a unmodified reserve canopy plus lines couldn't be repacked in the field with daisy-chaining, since the loose knots would occupy more volume than the well laid out (and rubberbanded) lines in a normal pack.
But if panels were removed from the canopy like Cossey? said,and the pack was not fully stuffed as a result, then maybe there was enough room for daisy-chained lines. That would all make sense, if trying to facilitate quick, repeated practice.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7737 on: March 02, 2022, 03:56:54 PM »
just a random thought.
if panels were really cut out from the dummy reserve, there probably would have been fewer lines on the canopy.
if the 1 or more panels were really just sewn shut to prevent the inflation, the number of lines might not have been reduced.

So it's possible there's a number of ways that the dummy reserve differed from the one Cooper cut open.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7738 on: March 02, 2022, 04:45:13 PM »
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just a random thought.
if panels were really cut out from the dummy reserve, there probably would have been fewer lines on the canopy.
if the 1 or more panels were really just sewn shut to prevent the inflation, the number of lines might not have been reduced.

So it's possible there's a number of ways that the dummy reserve differed from the one Cooper cut open.

One thing that has always perplexed me is why Cooper did not get a backpack to put the money in.  Did he not think that $200k would be as bulky and heavy as it was?  He's in Seattle, one of the hiking capitals of the United States.  He could simply have asked for a backpack and had a good chance of someone having one at the airport as part of their luggage, or in a store at the airport, or even a store down the street.  I wonder what was going on in his mind.  Maybe he felt he was a pro with knots and could rig something on his own.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7739 on: March 02, 2022, 11:08:08 PM »
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...it's possible there's a number of ways that the dummy reserve differed from the one Cooper cut open.

Not sure exactly what you meant by 'in the field', but there's really no reason for a dummy reserve to leave the training area. And sewing the canopy panels wouldn't be to keep it from inflating, but just to keep it together. Removing panels, sewing it together, containing the lines... Whatever makes that thing easier to repack between uses. You would just want the canopy to be of reasonably similar bulk for accurate training.


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One thing that has always perplexed me is why Cooper did not get a backpack to put the money in.  Did he not think that $200k would be as bulky and heavy as it was?  He's in Seattle, one of the hiking capitals of the United States.  He could simply have asked for a backpack and had a good chance of someone having one at the airport as part of their luggage, or in a store at the airport, or even a store down the street.  I wonder what was going on in his mind.  Maybe he felt he was a pro with knots and could rig something on his own.

I think he did ask for one, they just didn't give it to him. A full camping style framed backpack really wouldn't work. Not sure what was available in those days, but one of those soft, smaller day pack sort of things that people carry stuff around in, he could put that on backwards so it hangs on his front, then put the rig on, that would've worked.