Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.3%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
75% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 753483 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7740 on: March 03, 2022, 12:38:50 AM »
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One thing that has always perplexed me is why Cooper did not get a backpack to put the money in.  Did he not think that $200k would be as bulky and heavy as it was?  He's in Seattle, one of the hiking capitals of the United States.  He could simply have asked for a backpack and had a good chance of someone having one at the airport as part of their luggage, or in a store at the airport, or even a store down the street.  I wonder what was going on in his mind.  Maybe he felt he was a pro with knots and could rig something on his own.

Cooper did ask for a knapsack (or that's what was relayed as the request)
he didn't get it though.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7741 on: March 03, 2022, 11:42:58 PM »
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One thing that has always perplexed me is why Cooper did not get a backpack to put the money in.  Did he not think that $200k would be as bulky and heavy as it was?  He's in Seattle, one of the hiking capitals of the United States.  He could simply have asked for a backpack and had a good chance of someone having one at the airport as part of their luggage, or in a store at the airport, or even a store down the street.  I wonder what was going on in his mind.  Maybe he felt he was a pro with knots and could rig something on his own.

Cooper did ask for a knapsack (or that's what was relayed as the request)
he didn't get it though.

No mention of a knapsack in the original demands conveyed to the crew. Knapsack not named in the Pilot Notes of demands.

Then Tina testifies:

"Mucklow then used a plain envelope to write out the demands of the hijacker, listing that he wanted four parachutes including two back packs and two chest packs, $200,000 in cash in small bills, and that he wanted everything by “by five o’clock”.  Mucklow says that Florence Schaffner  delivered this note to the pilot’s compartment, since the hijacker insisted that she stay physically present beside him at all times. She says that she sat with the hijacker from then through almost the whole time from then on (until she was released by the hijacker to go forward to the cockpit). [no mention of knapsack]

The hijacker displayed an extensive knowledge of the aircraft and seemed specifically well informed in refueling procedures to the point that the crew had difficulty in convincing him that only 90% of the required fuel was on board at the time he was protesting the fact that refueling had not been completed. It was also during this time that he complained to Mucklow that he had requested the money be delivered in a knapsack but instead it was delivered in a cloth type bank bag, which displeased him. It was at this time that Mucklow recalls he stated he would be forced to use one of the parachutes to rewrap the money since he had not been furnished the knapsack."

Knapsack appears to have been lost in the shuffle/translations .... maybe Cooper didn't specify it ? Or it didnt get conveyed . . . 

 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 11:46:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7742 on: March 05, 2022, 03:35:50 PM »
I don't think you're right georger.
I quick look at what I posted in 2008...(I think the stew notes also mentioned knapsack? forget)

forget what "transcript" this was..something from ckret at the time.

page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)

305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA

(note the ENRTE TO EA and ENRTE TO SEA) is "enroute to seattle"
ah. 2HND THSD is "two hundred thousand" abbreviation

Interesting Cooper asked for a knapsack (I guess they didn't give him one) so that was his plan for the money..not tying it around himself like he did...see he did have a good plan for carrying the money.

Okay the idea of chest packs seems to have been introduced by the team on the ground
I think...not Cooper.

page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7743 on: March 05, 2022, 03:58:37 PM »
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I don't think you're right georger.
I quick look at what I posted in 2008...(I think the stew notes also mentioned knapsack? forget)

forget what "transcript" this was..something from ckret at the time.

page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)

305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA

(note the ENRTE TO EA and ENRTE TO SEA) is "enroute to seattle"
ah. 2HND THSD is "two hundred thousand" abbreviation

Interesting Cooper asked for a knapsack (I guess they didn't give him one) so that was his plan for the money..not tying it around himself like he did...see he did have a good plan for carrying the money.

Okay the idea of chest packs seems to have been introduced by the team on the ground
I think...not Cooper.

page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS

I didnt check the flight comms - yes its mentioned.
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7744 on: March 14, 2022, 08:49:49 PM »
I was just skimming through the latest FBI Part 68, and came across the following report about some loggers in the Washougal area who were over heard talking on CB radio about finding a some unspecified amount of $20 bills on a logging road.  It's on page 94 and 95, it's from circa April 1979.  Has anyone seen or heard of this before in any of the earlier 302s?  Unfortunately, the story just ends with them stating to follow up with person who reported it.  I guess nothing came of it, but I thought it was interesting because of the Washougal tie in and it predates the Tina Bar discovery by about 8 months or so.  Attached is page 94.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7745 on: March 15, 2022, 04:48:43 AM »
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I'm curious what kind of rig McCoy brought with him and how he got it onboard the flight unnoticed?

Do we know if DB Cooper, whether it be McCoy or not, used any makeup or disguise?  He put those sunglass's on pretty fast.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7746 on: March 15, 2022, 05:05:14 AM »
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I was just skimming through the latest FBI Part 68, and came across the following report about some loggers in the Washougal area who were over heard talking on CB radio about finding a some unspecified amount of $20 bills on a logging road.  It's on page 94 and 95, it's from circa April 1979.  Has anyone seen or heard of this before in any of the earlier 302s?  Unfortunately, the story just ends with them stating to follow up with person who reported it.  I guess nothing came of it, but I thought it was interesting because of the Washougal tie in and it predates the Tina Bar discovery by about 8 months or so.  Attached is page 94.

Very cool find. Thanks.
 
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7747 on: March 15, 2022, 11:34:58 AM »
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I'm curious what kind of rig McCoy brought with him and how he got it onboard the flight unnoticed?

Do we know if DB Cooper, whether it be McCoy or not, used any makeup or disguise?  He put those sunglass's on pretty fast.

Hey DBfan, I don't have the specific 302 references, perhaps others may be able to quote them specifically. But from what I have read, the eye witnesses and specifically the stewardesses (think Tina who sat next to him for a long time), were specifically asked if they thought he showed signs of wearing a disguise--they answered no, it did not appear that he was wearing a wig or anything like that.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7748 on: March 16, 2022, 07:07:43 AM »
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I'm curious what kind of rig McCoy brought with him and how he got it onboard the flight unnoticed?

Do we know if DB Cooper, whether it be McCoy or not, used any makeup or disguise?  He put those sunglass's on pretty fast.

Hey DBfan, I don't have the specific 302 references, perhaps others may be able to quote them specifically. But from what I have read, the eye witnesses and specifically the stewardesses (think Tina who sat next to him for a long time), were specifically asked if they thought he showed signs of wearing a disguise--they answered no, it did not appear that he was wearing a wig or anything like that.
Florence Shaffner was the only one to see him without the sunglass's and she has been proven to be a pretty lousy source of recollection.  Tina was the smart one from all I have read.  Its very difficult to know if someone is wearing a wig lets say, if you are not looking for it. We know that McCoy disguised himself on that flight from Denver.   Thinking back to the details of that flight, McCoy of course could not have known they were transferring a prisoner on that flight. He used him to grab the loot and also used him to make the FBI believe he may have been involved.  Very smart of McCoy to use the word "WE" have guns and explosives.  Making them believe there were more than one hijacker. The sloppiest thing he did was leaving his prints knowing full well his were on record due to his military service.  But in crime, bank robberies and such, early success brings on over confidence and the feeling of invincibility.  Leading later to ones downfall.  Complacency sets in.  Would a green beret be complacent if that were his first skyjacking?  I think not. 
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7749 on: March 20, 2022, 08:00:21 AM »
Asking for clarification from the Vortex experts on the following:

Did Cooper leave behind a note during the hijacking ? It has always been my understanding, that he took everything back.  But as I continue skimming through FBI Part 68, there are at least 3 different references with the assumption that the FBI has one of the notes, page 185, page 295 and also page 303.  (screen shots attached).

I believe these pages are ~1975 time frame.  Thanks.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7750 on: March 20, 2022, 04:42:28 PM »
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Asking for clarification from the Vortex experts on the following:

Did Cooper leave behind a note during the hijacking ? It has always been my understanding, that he took everything back.  But as I continue skimming through FBI Part 68, there are at least 3 different references with the assumption that the FBI has one of the notes, page 185, page 295 and also page 303.  (screen shots attached).

I believe these pages are ~1975 time frame.  Thanks.

The only thing Cooper wrote was the original hijacking demands note that he gave to one of the stews (Flo?).  She took it to the cockpit and stayed there.  At some point, Cooper ask for that original note to be returned to him and it was by means that are not clear.  The rest of the notes you see were written by Flo while in the cockpit from conversations that she had with Tina over the interphone system.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7751 on: March 21, 2022, 05:21:49 AM »
That's my understanding as well, JAG.
 
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7752 on: April 07, 2022, 03:00:06 AM »
Does anyone in this forum live in or near Minneapolis? The Minnesota Historical Society library has 55.75 cubic feet of corporate records of Northwest Airlines,  including one box containing some material relating to Flight 305. If anyone is able to visit the library, I can provide the name and contact details of the research librarian.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7753 on: April 07, 2022, 04:27:00 PM »
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Does anyone in this forum live in or near Minneapolis? The Minnesota Historical Society library has 55.75 cubic feet of corporate records of Northwest Airlines,  including one box containing some material relating to Flight 305. If anyone is able to visit the library, I can provide the name and contact details of the research librarian.

Andrade reportedly lives in Minnesota.  Maybe Minneapolis.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7754 on: April 09, 2022, 06:07:07 PM »
Vicki Wilson also lives in the Minnie Apple area.