Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588865 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7290 on: September 11, 2021, 05:44:18 PM »
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I spoke with Alice  about five years ago. The conversation was very brief, and after I introduced myself as a journalist working on the DB Cooper case, she sighed and said, "it'll take just oo much time to get you up to speed.." and as her voice trailed off he hung up.

I mailed her a copy of my book shortly thereafter, but she never responded.

Galen has spoken to her numerous times, and Alice assisted him in trying to make contact with Tina, circa 2011, but the letter Alice wrote went unanswered by Tina. In response to Tina's non-response, Galen sent a certified, registered letter to Tina that also went unanswered, but apparently ended up in the possession of Lee Dormuth, who referenced it when I spoke with him circa 2012 in Shelton, WA.

weird. Maybe Galen gave Lee a copy of the letter he sent, so Lee had that, not the letter that went to Tina?

It's curious to me that Alice's reaction to the first drawing, was so much more detailed (in the 302) than Flo or Tina.


EDIT: oh I just saw your detailed timeline of Tina's travels here elsewhere.
I didn't realize the Dormuths were so closely involved in her life over time.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 05:46:23 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7291 on: September 11, 2021, 06:21:09 PM »
Here's something that hasn't been fully discussed.
On Feb 26, 2014, the FBI responded to an FOIA that the Washington State Historical Society (Ms. Owen Whiting) did.
Ms. Whiting apparently asked for "PALMER, LENORD (1980 REPORT) as part of FOIPA Request 1236036-000

In the response, the FBI gave information about a parachute that was found on Reed Island in 2001, which was sent off for lab analysis. No report on what the lab provided.
Apparently no Palmer report was included, so the FBI was weirdly mistaken in what they provided for the FOIA.

This FOIA has been discussed, I include the first two out of 3 pages.
The 2nd page has apparently whatever some agent decided was the expected cooper parachutes in 2001

Here's my question:

Apparently Tosaw was the first to have a description of any marking on the dummy reserve. Flyjack quotes that as a black X. We have no idea what the truth is, since the fbi files don't have any information about the so-called dummy reserve. We also don't know if Issaquah had multiple dummy reserves made, if they were similarly marked if so, or even if the dummy reserve was recreated after Cooper took it, for further training at Issaquah (like apparently the first) in 1971/72. It's possible it hadn't been used for training in a while, and never replaced? Don't know.

But here's the strange thing. Rather than describing the dummy reserve has having a black X on the container, like Tosaw did...the FBI described their thinking on what the dummy reserve should be (at least by the unnamed 2001 agent), in this FOIA (along with the back rig, which may have been a flawed description, per discussions here)


2. Chest pack #1 : 24 foot, white nylon canopy, white nylon shrouds - 14' length model T-7A. Container was olive drab green, 10" x 14" x 6". "Norm D" inscribed on container.


How did the FBI know that "Norm D" was inscribed on the container? And why wasn't it described as having a black X on it like Tosaw apparently reported. Any "Norm D" marking was probably a unique name relating to some military jumper who had used the reserve in the past before Issaquah acquired it? Like "Johnson" ...so it's not like "oh yeah all training reserves were marked "Norm D"...i.e. it's not a generic labelling (in most likelihood)

I'm constantly amazed by the lack of accurate detail about how the dummy reserve container looked.

It's strange, if post-hijack, that Issaquah "remembered" that the dummy reserve said "Norm D" ?? Maybe they did. Or did the FBI mark that down pre-delivery to Cooper? If so, why not mark the black X??

Or was the dummy reserve a mistaken identification by Issaquah, and Cooper actually got a reserve that looked like the one left on the plane, just marked "Norm D" instead???

The one left on the plane said "Johnson" so there's not some mistake about what reserve we're talking about?


EDIT:Another oddity: in that page 1, it says "A flow study commissioned by the FBI at that time determined that the money had likely been naturally deposited in that location [ed. Tena Bar] and had probably flowed down the Washougal River or one of its tributaries."

Did the agent writing the report just make that up in 2001? Or was such a "flow study" done? If so, has anyone seen this "flow study" ??
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 06:35:30 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7292 on: September 11, 2021, 07:14:25 PM »
laughed when I saw this.

WSHS in their db collection, they have a picture of the Northwest Orient timetable: Oct 31 1971.
It's mine. I still have it.

I bought it off ebay (or more likely a collector), way back in 2008, and posted the pic to dropzone.com. I was surprised to find that collectors actually existed for all this timetable stuff from airlines.
it says Credit: Dropzone.com

:)
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They apparently only have part of the timetable (the portland part). I think I had posted two images at the time.

I should probably give it to them for their physical collection.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 07:15:50 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7293 on: September 11, 2021, 07:30:24 PM »
Researching the reserve container description some more (my prior post)
I think shutter had mentioned this all before.
it's on page 391 of fbi file 10, on 11/26/71
with the name redacted (unlike the foia)
but it says model t-7A with 14' "white nylon shrouds" ...so it's likely to be the same thing and the redacted is the "Norm D" that's mentioned in the 2014 FOIA (the rest of the description lines up)

So how did they know "Norm D" on 11/26/71
And if they recorded that themselves, why didn't they record a black X (which theoretically should have been very visible)

I'm reallly wondering if maybe Cooper didn't get a dummy reserve, and that was a mistake by Issaquah.

although they must have contacted Issaquah to get the detail about the canopy being  a model T-7A

all very confusing.

EDIT: this description and the 2014 FOIA both use "inscribed" as part of the description.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 07:33:31 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7294 on: September 11, 2021, 08:30:24 PM »
for completeness, that fbi report the wshs foia got, is in file 51 pages 375-377
attached first two pages, so you can see it's the same

interestingly, like the foia, the "norm d" is not redacted here..as it was on 11/26/71 report

To put a fine point on it:
We all agree the exact back rig cooper used, is confusing because of poor info in the fbi files.

Yet, we all seem to agree on the dummy reserve, even though there is little info on it. Cossey or someone at Issaquah was first to say "dummy" ???

Why do we believe that, when we know other info is debatable?

EDIT: pages 373 and 374 have extended info about the Reed Island find

<redacted> came to the Office of the FBI, Vancouver Resident Agency, to turn in what he believed to be a parachute that might be associated with the D.B. Cooper hijacking. <redacted> stated that he and his sons were in the area of Reed Island in the Columbia River, in approximately August, 2000 [ed. note the parachute was apparently presented on 8/7/2001, but found August 2000 ?? maybe 2000 is  a typo, since the parachute was wet when presented, and sandy].  when they came across an item that they believed to be a parachute. They were digging in the sand along the water when they found the item.

<redacted> stated that he had no interest in the item and that if it was of no use to the FBI, it could be disposed of and/or destroyed.


additional detail on page 374

They were playing in the sand along the water, digging holes in the sand, when they came across the item"


and

"During the review in  Seattle small green markings were noted on the canopy"

they talked about having no place to dry it. So unclear if they did further documentation of it. Seem to have sent it to lab in Wash. DC.

lots of redacted apparent photo pages after that. Seem to be labelled with various suspect names..

oh but wait. there's something else...a "$20 bill cashed at Gas Station with Ransom Serial" ??
will post that
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 08:43:33 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7295 on: September 11, 2021, 08:45:57 PM »
what is this?
in a series of pages with redacted apparent photos..there are captions left.

on page 392 this caption

582. $20 bill cashed at Gas Station with Ransom Serial (Unsub)

that's strange. I've not heard any story that would connect with that?

it seems to be in a list of photo evidence...examples
518. Unsub: Possibly used pay phone near LaCenter Wa on 11/24/71
520. Unsub: Orange parachute found in Plumas Co.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 08:48:37 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7296 on: September 11, 2021, 08:58:44 PM »
Found another reference to the mysterious
"Gas Station with Ransom Serial"

fbi file 29 page 357 and 359

the serial numbers were altered

"The serial number on the bill was L51279635A Series 69
The digits 635 were cut out and replaced with a $1.00 bill having digits 635.


he must mean the original numbers were cut out and replaced with 635.
that is a valid serial, but apparently it was manufactured as described.

More details about he customer who paid for her gas with a $20 bill with the altered serial number.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 09:00:27 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7297 on: September 11, 2021, 11:50:45 PM »
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Found another reference to the mysterious
"Gas Station with Ransom Serial"

fbi file 29 page 357 and 359

the serial numbers were altered

"The serial number on the bill was L51279635A Series 69
The digits 635 were cut out and replaced with a $1.00 bill having digits 635.


he must mean the original numbers were cut out and replaced with 635.
that is a valid serial, but apparently it was manufactured as described.

More details about he customer who paid for her gas with a $20 bill with the altered serial number.

interesting ...
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7298 on: September 12, 2021, 12:29:49 PM »
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Found another reference to the mysterious
"Gas Station with Ransom Serial"

fbi file 29 page 357 and 359

the serial numbers were altered

"The serial number on the bill was L51279635A Series 69
The digits 635 were cut out and replaced with a $1.00 bill having digits 635.


he must mean the original numbers were cut out and replaced with 635.
that is a valid serial, but apparently it was manufactured as described.

More details about he customer who paid for her gas with a $20 bill with the altered serial number.

Snowmman: How difficult would it be for your program to also look for $20s that were 1963 as well as the 1963A, 1969, etc?  And serial numbers that are a close match?

I spent a good amount of time thinking about how I'd alter the money to move it.  I looked at the Federal Reserve code, but that is hard to change.  However, the serial numbers (8's and 3's) could be changed by someone with skills.  The easiest thing to change though would be the 1963A marking and making that a 1963 instead.  It's a long shot given that most of these bills are not in circulation, and even if someone saved one, they may not put it on eBay.  But I guess you never know. 

It is just very unusual to me that none of the $194,000 was spent.  I guess there are many scenarios on where the money is, but those are all low probability to me:

1.  The bag is still in the woods (hard to believe no one found it and spent some)
2. The bag is still underwater
3. It washed out to sea (hard to believe)
4.  Cooper kept the money and burned it or it is in attic
5. It is sitting in a vault somewhere overseas.  (unlikely)
6.  The FBI or insurance company got it back (now we are talking conspiracy, so unlikely).
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7299 on: September 12, 2021, 01:42:04 PM »
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Snowmman: How difficult would it be for your program to also look for $20s that were 1963 as well as the 1963A, 1969, etc?  And serial numbers that are a close match?


fcastle866
I've thought along the lines you're suggested and done some stuff. I can do anything, the question is what is useful.

Based on the manual work I did with the serial numbers, I thought hard about the FBI people doing similar manual entry back in 1971 (from microfilm to apparent computer entry for sort) and the possibility of errors in that process.

I have noted the apparent FBI errors in the files in the zip. Both egregious and not egregious. Since BEP records could be erroneous (they have before in some cases)...I didn't change all FBI serials to match BEP records.

The series numbers for a number of 1950C bills seem wrong. I think some should be 1950D.
Since the series number is smaller on a bill, compared to the serial, it's possible there were errors in a larger number of series numbers. Don't know.

Also, it's easy to have the A vs B trailing letter wrong (data entry typo) in the 1963A bills, and we'd have no way of telling. Etc.

So I was thinking: what if the district or trailing A, B, C, D was wrong (there is at least one typo with a D)

I could search for all combinations of districts and trailing A, B, for a given number and ignore the series year (for instance if 1963 vs 1963A error or 1969 etc.)

But the problem is: google search doesn't hit any collector sites for serial number searches (just dbcooperforum). I also think collectors don't list serials as much as we would like. I have hit on a $1 bill with a matching serial number, so that's interesting.

And on ebay, it's rare that they list the serial number in text.

I have done an automated ebay search for 1963A and 1969 serials, and it captures the ebay images. I can manually eyeball the serial and compare to the list


One thing that could be done, is to write an article for a collectors magazine, and provide, say, the list of star notes. That's a smaller list. That could generate interest. Could have a link to the full text list, so people could check other notes. Attached the list of star notes. (343 of them)
Or make the full list easily accessible online.

I think the interesting thing would be if all collectors could easily search their pile of 1963A and 1969 notes (minimally). Although: the other districts with smaller print runs, might be more likely to be in collections...people like to have "all districts" etc. Like an oddball district star note could turn up, even though it's only a small number in the cooper list. It's about matching "collectibility" I think, not sheer number printed or present in the cooper list.

It's been difficult for people to search their notes.

Maybe in the future, there will be more automation of currency serials that people have in their collections.

I think collectors are a vast untapped resource here for checking bills.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 01:53:53 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7300 on: September 12, 2021, 02:32:28 PM »
A while back, I think in dropzone.com, I thought I read that Flyjack seemed to say that Cooper was described as having cigarette stains on his right hand? Does anyone remember that?

I was surprised. That seemed like news to me. Since I don't recall anyone describing Cooper like that.

There seems to be both "truth" and "not truth". My assessment is "not truth" prevails.

I tracked down a FBI report in the FBI files that was written in April 1988 where an agent was talking about a suspect with cigarette stains on his right hand.

When he summarized the expected Cooper description, he included "cigarette stains on his right hand". Which matched his suspect.

My read of this is that the FBI agent either misread prior reports for Cooper, or did a typo or something. It's very unclear why the FBI agent wrote that.

In any case, I don't think there are any legitimate reports of Cooper with cigarette stains on his right hand.

If anyone knows of any fbi file/page that says this (from reports in early '70s) , please post a pointer to them. Like I say, I think the agent in this attached 1988 report (and any copies of it) is just propagating wrong info.

fbi file 49 page 68 and 71
have same info (attached)

This had to do with the investigation of Merlin Gene Cooper, AKA John T. Titan, John Coop Titan.

The erroneous Cooper description is

The following description is taken from file regarding witnesses' descriptions of hijacker Dan Cooper:
White male American, mid-forties, 6', 170 to 175 pounds, olive complexion or medium to swarthy complexion, black hair, brown eyes, average to well-built, cigarette stains on right hand"


In the previous paragraph the description of Merlin Cooper ends with "cigarette stains on right hand" also.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 04:18:17 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7301 on: September 12, 2021, 04:25:35 PM »
If one was prone to speculation, you could argue that since no witnesses reported cigarette stains on Cooper's hands, that Cooper was not a heavy smoker.

But I think that would be speculation, because I don't think witnesses observed that close enough.

also, he kept his right hand in the briefcase a lot?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7302 on: September 12, 2021, 04:28:19 PM »
Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 04:29:23 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7303 on: September 12, 2021, 04:42:42 PM »
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Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

from the page number that you attached, it seems like that report is from 1988..i.e. part of the file for the report info I included,

So I think that is incorrect info from an agent in 1988
do we all agree on that?

EDIT: actually that suspect is Eugene Cooper.
I have to find the time frame for that report. I think it's close to the report I included for a different suspect.

I'm surprised the report says a stewardess said there were stains. that's not in any of the True Ink reports from Geoffrey Gray that had the 302s from the stewardesses. ???

EDIT: okay I found georger's page
same fbi file I quoted, fbi file 49 page 35

I've attached the first page, which says the report is from 3/7/88 (1988)

so I think somehow an agent in 1988 got bad info.

Otherwise: why is this info no where to be found before 1988?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 04:54:03 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7304 on: September 12, 2021, 05:17:57 PM »
Another example of what's wrong in the 1988 report georger posted. (so basically the report has multiple erroneous things). I now suspect the agent was just typing stuff based on recollections of what he read, that were jumbled/wrong.

it starts out saying "stewardess said" and includes the quote about "laboring type man"

That did not come from a stewardess. That quote came from the ticket counter guy.

That 1988 description is all messed up by the FBI agent.

I attached the description of "laboring type man" from the ticket counter guy.

The exact words in the fbi report

Overall impression    Laboring type man as opposed to office worker

fbi file 10 page 444 (teletype forwarding the ticket counter description)
fbi file 18 page 146 (302 about the ticket counter description)

and also where it appears in 1988 all of a sudden (in addition to georger's report)
fbi file 49 page 35

I include the fbi 18 page 146, which is dated 12/8/71 and seems to be the interview report from a SA.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 05:23:37 PM by snowmman »