Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 478964 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6105 on: February 18, 2021, 01:09:38 PM »
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To me, "rogue" means the perp might be on his own. "Sanctioned" suggests a larger group, such as a governmental agency.

I have just subscribed to Ken Mains on YouTube.  He is ex cop, marine FBI, and is a top cold case detective who has done extensive work on the Zodiac murders, some on Jon Benet and plans to dig deeper into DB Cooper.  He said he at first leaned towards DB not surviving the jump but now is leaning the other way.  He says "I think this DB is much smarter than I gave him credit for and plan to look into this more in the future".  He also wants to know why the FBI has ruled out McCoy?  Not that he is dead sold on him, but finds him the best suspect of those on the list.  BUT, also says, "he may be off the list entirely".  I like this guy.  I just watched his investigation into the Lynard Skynrd Plane crash on YouTube.  And the Jon Benet case.  I happen to agree that was a complete cover up by the parents.  It was done by the family.   But he does not condemn the DA for not going forward.  He says there is still time for that.  Yet Patsy is gone now.  I will watch anything he has to say if he does put more work into this case

Ken Mains has some great podcasts.  He's ruffled some feathers though, and I thought he kind of dropped off the radar after Zodiac.  Having a guy like that looking into the case could bring some more attention.

DBfan-on the post about choosing when to jump, my feeling that his first decision was to do the jump (obviously), but the next decision was to do it on the night before Thanksgiving. So:

1.  Decide to hijack the plane
2.  Do it on the day before Thanksgiving (for whatever reason I don't know).
3.  Choose to do it at night

Did weather have an impact on his choice, or was his choice more about location (Northwest), day, time, etc.?  Portland is usually pretty overcast as it is.  I guess maybe he could have been sitting and waiting for the perfect weather to fit his needs, wind, moon, precipitation, etc.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6106 on: February 18, 2021, 02:17:52 PM »
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To me, "rogue" means the perp might be on his own. "Sanctioned" suggests a larger group, such as a governmental agency.

I have just subscribed to Ken Mains on YouTube.  He is ex cop, marine FBI, and is a top cold case detective who has done extensive work on the Zodiac murders, some on Jon Benet and plans to dig deeper into DB Cooper.  He said he at first leaned towards DB not surviving the jump but now is leaning the other way.  He says "I think this DB is much smarter than I gave him credit for and plan to look into this more in the future".  He also wants to know why the FBI has ruled out McCoy?  Not that he is dead sold on him, but finds him the best suspect of those on the list.  BUT, also says, "he may be off the list entirely".  I like this guy.  I just watched his investigation into the Lynard Skynrd Plane crash on YouTube.  And the Jon Benet case.  I happen to agree that was a complete cover up by the parents.  It was done by the family.   But he does not condemn the DA for not going forward.  He says there is still time for that.  Yet Patsy is gone now.  I will watch anything he has to say if he does put more work into this case

Ken Mains has some great podcasts.  He's ruffled some feathers though, and I thought he kind of dropped off the radar after Zodiac.  Having a guy like that looking into the case could bring some more attention.

DBfan-on the post about choosing when to jump, my feeling that his first decision was to do the jump (obviously), but the next decision was to do it on the night before Thanksgiving. So:

1.  Decide to hijack the plane
2.  Do it on the day before Thanksgiving (for whatever reason I don't know).
3.  Choose to do it at night

Did weather have an impact on his choice, or was his choice more about location (Northwest), day, time, etc.?  Portland is usually pretty overcast as it is.  I guess maybe he could have been sitting and waiting for the perfect weather to fit his needs, wind, moon, precipitation, etc.

If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6107 on: February 19, 2021, 01:29:11 PM »
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To me, "rogue" means the perp might be on his own. "Sanctioned" suggests a larger group, such as a governmental agency.

I have just subscribed to Ken Mains on YouTube.  He is ex cop, marine FBI, and is a top cold case detective who has done extensive work on the Zodiac murders, some on Jon Benet and plans to dig deeper into DB Cooper.  He said he at first leaned towards DB not surviving the jump but now is leaning the other way.  He says "I think this DB is much smarter than I gave him credit for and plan to look into this more in the future".  He also wants to know why the FBI has ruled out McCoy?  Not that he is dead sold on him, but finds him the best suspect of those on the list.  BUT, also says, "he may be off the list entirely".  I like this guy.  I just watched his investigation into the Lynard Skynrd Plane crash on YouTube.  And the Jon Benet case.  I happen to agree that was a complete cover up by the parents.  It was done by the family.   But he does not condemn the DA for not going forward.  He says there is still time for that.  Yet Patsy is gone now.  I will watch anything he has to say if he does put more work into this case

Ken Mains has some great podcasts.  He's ruffled some feathers though, and I thought he kind of dropped off the radar after Zodiac.  Having a guy like that looking into the case could bring some more attention.

DBfan-on the post about choosing when to jump, my feeling that his first decision was to do the jump (obviously), but the next decision was to do it on the night before Thanksgiving. So:

1.  Decide to hijack the plane
2.  Do it on the day before Thanksgiving (for whatever reason I don't know).
3.  Choose to do it at night

Did weather have an impact on his choice, or was his choice more about location (Northwest), day, time, etc.?  Portland is usually pretty overcast as it is.  I guess maybe he could have been sitting and waiting for the perfect weather to fit his needs, wind, moon, precipitation, etc.
Unless he is ever caught, and that seems highly unlikely, its all speculation as to his method?  No idea if he is still alive of course ,but my money is on him having made it that night for sure.  I often wonder if he really is Canadian and not enough emphasis was put on that?  How much investigating was actually done in Canada?  It makes sense that he was Canadian, because I think the comic book and the statement about "American currency' are evidence
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6108 on: February 19, 2021, 01:37:47 PM »
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To me, "rogue" means the perp might be on his own. "Sanctioned" suggests a larger group, such as a governmental agency.

I have just subscribed to Ken Mains on YouTube.  He is ex cop, marine FBI, and is a top cold case detective who has done extensive work on the Zodiac murders, some on Jon Benet and plans to dig deeper into DB Cooper.  He said he at first leaned towards DB not surviving the jump but now is leaning the other way.  He says "I think this DB is much smarter than I gave him credit for and plan to look into this more in the future".  He also wants to know why the FBI has ruled out McCoy?  Not that he is dead sold on him, but finds him the best suspect of those on the list.  BUT, also says, "he may be off the list entirely".  I like this guy.  I just watched his investigation into the Lynard Skynrd Plane crash on YouTube.  And the Jon Benet case.  I happen to agree that was a complete cover up by the parents.  It was done by the family.   But he does not condemn the DA for not going forward.  He says there is still time for that.  Yet Patsy is gone now.  I will watch anything he has to say if he does put more work into this case

Ken Mains has some great podcasts.  He's ruffled some feathers though, and I thought he kind of dropped off the radar after Zodiac.  Having a guy like that looking into the case could bring some more attention.

DBfan-on the post about choosing when to jump, my feeling that his first decision was to do the jump (obviously), but the next decision was to do it on the night before Thanksgiving. So:

1.  Decide to hijack the plane
2.  Do it on the day before Thanksgiving (for whatever reason I don't know).
3.  Choose to do it at night

Did weather have an impact on his choice, or was his choice more about location (Northwest), day, time, etc.?  Portland is usually pretty overcast as it is.  I guess maybe he could have been sitting and waiting for the perfect weather to fit his needs, wind, moon, precipitation, etc.

If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.
Damn smart for 1971.  I may have chosen a Brinks truck? 3 were hit here in my area, the Kodak payroll job in early 70s, the 90s South ave Brinks job, where the Irish priest was involved and the Bailey Rd job where the guards were tied up, an inside job, the insider is still in jail to this day.  They just solved the Xerox job where a guy stormed the credit union in broad daylight, killed the clerk, got a bunch of money.  It took years to solve. That was in Webster NY, a suburb of Rochester
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6109 on: February 19, 2021, 04:38:40 PM »
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To me, "rogue" means the perp might be on his own. "Sanctioned" suggests a larger group, such as a governmental agency.

I have just subscribed to Ken Mains on YouTube.  He is ex cop, marine FBI, and is a top cold case detective who has done extensive work on the Zodiac murders, some on Jon Benet and plans to dig deeper into DB Cooper.  He said he at first leaned towards DB not surviving the jump but now is leaning the other way.  He says "I think this DB is much smarter than I gave him credit for and plan to look into this more in the future".  He also wants to know why the FBI has ruled out McCoy?  Not that he is dead sold on him, but finds him the best suspect of those on the list.  BUT, also says, "he may be off the list entirely".  I like this guy.  I just watched his investigation into the Lynard Skynrd Plane crash on YouTube.  And the Jon Benet case.  I happen to agree that was a complete cover up by the parents.  It was done by the family.   But he does not condemn the DA for not going forward.  He says there is still time for that.  Yet Patsy is gone now.  I will watch anything he has to say if he does put more work into this case

Ken Mains has some great podcasts.  He's ruffled some feathers though, and I thought he kind of dropped off the radar after Zodiac.  Having a guy like that looking into the case could bring some more attention.

DBfan-on the post about choosing when to jump, my feeling that his first decision was to do the jump (obviously), but the next decision was to do it on the night before Thanksgiving. So:

1.  Decide to hijack the plane
2.  Do it on the day before Thanksgiving (for whatever reason I don't know).
3.  Choose to do it at night

Did weather have an impact on his choice, or was his choice more about location (Northwest), day, time, etc.?  Portland is usually pretty overcast as it is.  I guess maybe he could have been sitting and waiting for the perfect weather to fit his needs, wind, moon, precipitation, etc.

If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.
Damn smart for 1971.  I may have chosen a Brinks truck? 3 were hit here in my area, the Kodak payroll job in early 70s, the 90s South ave Brinks job, where the Irish priest was involved and the Bailey Rd job where the guards were tied up, an inside job, the insider is still in jail to this day.  They just solved the Xerox job where a guy stormed the credit union in broad daylight, killed the clerk, got a bunch of money.  It took years to solve. That was in Webster NY, a suburb of Rochester

Do you have any information on the bank operating hours in Western Canada in 1971?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6110 on: February 19, 2021, 07:02:46 PM »
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If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.


It's my understanding that the FBI has access to their dedicated funds 24/7, in all of the banks they had selected for this kind of ransom demand.

As I recall, Ckret said something along these lines back on the DZ.

No?
 

Online georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6111 on: February 19, 2021, 11:41:17 PM »
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If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.


It's my understanding that the FBI has access to their dedicated funds 24/7, in all of the banks they had selected for this kind of ransom demand.

As I recall, Ckret said something along these lines back on the DZ.

No?

Yes. Simpul az that.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6112 on: February 20, 2021, 01:16:42 PM »
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If you think Cooper was smart, as opposed to being just plain lucky, then he must have known that a bank had some cash on hand at the FBI's suggestion for just such events.  I don't know what time banks in Seattle closed on a weekday, and just before a holiday, but Cooper passed the note to Flo at almost exactly 3:00 PM and stated that everything on the ground should be ready by 5:00 PM, which was well after sunset.  Presumably, the Seattle bank would have put all the cash in a time controlled vault shortly after regular banking hours were over.  In my opinion, Cooper was pushing his luck on just being able to get the cash that evening.


It's my understanding that the FBI has access to their dedicated funds 24/7, in all of the banks they had selected for this kind of ransom demand.

As I recall, Ckret said something along these lines back on the DZ.

No?

Did Cooper know that?  If so, where did he get his information?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6113 on: February 20, 2021, 04:42:26 PM »
That is "The $64,000 Question," isn't it.

It suggests inside knowledge, far beyond working for Boeing or Tektronix. But not SOG and other similar groups.

Going further down that rabbit hole....

... It also suggests, or hints at, the notion that Dan Cooper knew he was getting twenties, and had already calculated that 200K in twenties would be about 22 pounds. Thus he could plan for that degree of an a-symmetrical jump.

So, it is possible that Dan Cooper had both inside knowledge of how to jump from a jetliner, ie: pick a 727, set its flaps at 15, landing gear down, etc., gathered from top-secret, covert sources, AND also inside knowledge of the FBI's preparations to stockpile ransom money in banks around the country.

Heady stuff, this rabbit hole, no?

The next rabbit hole is who else is asking questions like this, and pondering the above possibilities. That brings up the notion of analyzing the cognitive and detective reasoning abilities of individual FBI agents.

Do you think Ralph Himmelsbach thought about these dynamics? Did he talk to Julie Mattson about them? Dorwin Schreuder?

How about Larry Carr? Did he wrestle with these dilemmas at 4 am when he was posting at the DZ? Did Curtis Eng?

Looking at the recent HBO/BBC docu on Norjak, The Mystery of DB Cooper," it is hard to imagine SA (retired) Bob Fuhriman ever engaging in these kinds of discussions.

No?

Maybe SA (retired) Bob Sale, as he is a sharp guy. But SA (retired) Sid Rubin? I don't think so.

As we can see, these rabbit holes are connected and it gets very deep, very quickly.

But wouldn't you want to hear these guys explore these issues in a panel discussion at CooperCon 2021?

Calling CKRETE: It's time for another trip "outside the box," Larry.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 05:01:05 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6114 on: February 20, 2021, 05:13:50 PM »
Maybe it would be worth our time to re-visit the story that Ralph Hatley (sp.?) shared with Bob Sailshaw, his wife and yourself (Bruce)? There was mention of someone seeking immunity from prosecution concerning the skyjacking. This "someone" supposedly had a wife that worked in the banking business. Might this be related?     By the way I,  read about this story on Bruce's website. (and yes I know the identity of this "someone").    Does anyone know if Mr. Hatley (sorry I am not sure of the spelling) is still with us?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6115 on: February 20, 2021, 10:28:08 PM »
It's Hatley.

Google has him still with us at 82 years old. In Eagle Creek, Oregon.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6116 on: February 20, 2021, 11:07:54 PM »
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That is "The $64,000 Question," isn't it.

It suggests inside knowledge, far beyond working for Boeing or Tektronix. But not SOG and other similar groups.

Going further down that rabbit hole....

... It also suggests, or hints at, the notion that Dan Cooper knew he was getting twenties, and had already calculated that 200K in twenties would be about 22 pounds. Thus he could plan for that degree of an a-symmetrical jump.

So, it is possible that Dan Cooper had both inside knowledge of how to jump from a jetliner, ie: pick a 727, set its flaps at 15, landing gear down, etc., gathered from top-secret, covert sources, AND also inside knowledge of the FBI's preparations to stockpile ransom money in banks around the country.

Heady stuff, this rabbit hole, no?

The next rabbit hole is who else is asking questions like this, and pondering the above possibilities. That brings up the notion of analyzing the cognitive and detective reasoning abilities of individual FBI agents.

Do you think Ralph Himmelsbach thought about these dynamics? Did he talk to Julie Mattson about them? Dorwin Schreuder?

How about Larry Carr? Did he wrestle with these dilemmas at 4 am when he was posting at the DZ? Did Curtis Eng?

Looking at the recent HBO/BBC docu on Norjak, The Mystery of DB Cooper," it is hard to imagine SA (retired) Bob Fuhriman ever engaging in these kinds of discussions.

No?

Maybe SA (retired) Bob Sale, as he is a sharp guy. But SA (retired) Sid Rubin? I don't think so.

As we can see, these rabbit holes are connected and it gets very deep, very quickly.

But wouldn't you want to hear these guys explore these issues in a panel discussion at CooperCon 2021?

Calling CKRETE: It's time for another trip "outside the box," Larry.

Bruce, as I understand it, you are saying that when all else fails, and it has, we need to start back at square one for the 50 anniversity of the skyjacking.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6117 on: February 21, 2021, 02:19:21 AM »
I've been researching the DB C case since 2008, and I feel that whenever we hit an evidentiary bump in the road it is always wise to return to Square One and explore other possibilities.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6118 on: February 22, 2021, 07:15:08 AM »
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I've been researching the DB C case since 2008, and I feel that whenever we hit an evidentiary bump in the road it is always wise to return to Square One and explore other possibilities.

OK Bruce.  Another question.  Have any of the top rated suspects been known to be fluent in speaking French?  That comic book of Dan Cooper, printed only in French, cannot be just coincidence. There has to be something to that, and I know that Gray flew to Europe to meet the author?  I am not sure if any of the guys like Rackstraw or Reca (who I doubt very much as he did not look like Cooper), or Christianson or any of the rest spoke French?  If one did its worth looking into. I still think we have no clue who he was or is.  ( I sure hope the old boy is still out there, and its possible).  I only hope he quit smoking though.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6119 on: February 22, 2021, 08:06:39 PM »
Gossett is reported to have been fluent in French. That's all I know.