Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 231917 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3015 on: July 24, 2020, 01:54:51 AM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

The above post is just more nonsense!

So an overcast and several cloud layers make it easier for the airliner to identify the Portland/Vancouver area than a cloud less evening?

Comment removed...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 09:16:18 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3016 on: July 24, 2020, 03:13:30 AM »
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....
...Tom Kaye keeps saying the money was probably deposited on Tina Bar as early as 1971 ... by some scenario Tom has yet to lay out ?   

At the 2011 Symposium TK speculated that the money was deposited by a guilt-stricken driver who had unwittingly given DB Cooper a ride hitch-hiking. Only after getting the 6K did the fellow feel remorse, burying it at T-Bar to save his immortal soul, etc...
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3017 on: July 24, 2020, 11:44:07 AM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

Kermit-thanks for that update, really good info.

Georger: I'm in general agreement with your post.  I had not considered the matches before, and this is the first I've heard about it, but it does remind me of a survival manual I read once that showed airmen burning cigarettes, and that at the time it was suggested that a cigarette would burn 7 minutes or so (just lit, not smoked) and that someone could use a cigarette as a rudimentary timer.  I tried it once on a firecracker set up and it worked as a delay.  I can't picture a time though that Cooper had cigarettes lit from Seattle to Portland though.  Maybe.

Robert99-We've "argued" this one before.  I believe leaving Seattle, heading south towards Portland with flaps at 15 degrees and landing gear down, that Cooper would know the general speed of the plane, and he would have had some idea of the winds, and if he was an experienced flyer, then he could have had some general idea of his location aided by the fact that there are no lights south of Tacoma until he gets to Portland.  I was not in the plane, but I have to imagine he knew when he was over the cities.  Does this put him in an exact spot?  No.  Does it mean he knew where he was? No, but it could mean that he thought he knew where he was.  If his plan was to jump just before Portland, then he only needed to have some basic timing and knowledge of the speed/wind, etc.  This was not a long trip.  Air speed vs ground speed with winds figured in is just not a whole lot of variance over 130 miles, so if he knew air speed, he should have had a general idea of where he was.  Even if it was within 20 miles, it may have given him the advantage he needed to start his escape.  At some point in his descent he should have been able to get some idea of his location while under the canopy.

Fcastle866, What is your basis for assuming that Cooper was an "experienced flyer"?  There are plenty of lights south of Tacoma although the glow from them might not have been making it through the several cloud layers and overcast that were under the airliner that night.

Based on the information that was available to Cooper, what is your estimate of the true airspeed, winds aloft speed and direction, and ground speed of the airliner, plus the flight path of the airliner?

If under canopy, I doubt if Cooper could see much of anything until he was within a few hundred feet of the ground.  It really was a "dark and stormy night".

Robert: Is it generally safe to say that ground speed is almost the same as air speed if there are no winds?  If so, then Cooper had to know a general air speed given the flap configuration, and landing gear being down.  We do know from the 302's that he had to tell the pilots to slow the plane down before he jumped, so he may have thought the plane was going slower than it actually was.  There is no way to know for sure if Cooper had flying experience, but my opinion and many others is that he did have flight experience.  Some think he had a lot, some not a lot.  I'm of the belief that he was at least comfortable in the air.

I think he "winged it" on a lot of things, and luck was in his favor.  Luck being preparation meeting opportunity.  I hypothesize that Cooper planned for a best case scenario of knowing the time/distance/general winds, and the direction, as well as having a plan to jump before Portland, whether that was right after the plane took off or before it hit the Oregon border.

One big piece for me is the turn that V23 takes on the flight path.  If he knew that the plane might take V23, then he would know to look or listen for a major turn north of Vancouver.  The placard find lends some credence to this.

If it were me and I wanted to hit an exact spot (within a mile or two), I would have used a radio and pulled late.  But we don't know if Cooper did either of these things.  I still believe that one probable scenario is that Cooper planned using the distance and time, knowing that the longest he'd be in the air would be around 40 minutes, and the least around 35 minutes.  He knew the general area where he would land, and planned for that.  I totally concede that the had the plane taken off over the ocean or flew off course that Cooper's plan would have changed dramatically, just as it would have if the plane never landed in Seattle, or the snipers got him, or someone on the plane.  A lot of things went his way that day from getting his seat to getting away.

I have not jumped at night in badly overcast weather, so I can't be sure what he would see while under canopy.  But I think he would have seen something useful.  I'll defer to 377 and others like yourself for commentary.

What lights would he see south of Tacoma?  Lake Merwin Dam, Fort Lewis, an airport beacon.  Etc.  Could he not have planned to use these as landmarks?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3018 on: July 24, 2020, 12:25:42 PM »
If there was ever a case that begged for more lab work and closer inspection - this is one of those. But it may be too late.

Likewise so many unanswered questions in general. Several weird coincidences; Tina the gospel advocate vs a hijacker! I guess you never know who you are going to run into on a hijacking! Tina with Bible and what appears to be a wrist watch - time piece mandatory for all crew? Not one word in the transcripts of Cooper asking Tina, 'what time is it?'. And yet he bails before too much time has run out almost guaranteeing he is still somewhere in Washington-Oregon, based on time alone.

That Bible and wrist watch may be two central players in the Cooper hijacking.   

« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 01:01:07 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3019 on: July 24, 2020, 12:50:46 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

The above post is just more nonsense!

So an overcast and several cloud layers make it easier for the airliner to identify the Portland/Vancouver area than a cloud less evening?

Georger, you definitely need an immediate intervention.  Get together with your shrink fast!

OK - stick to your script. So far its all you have. Its sad but nothing anyone can do about it. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3020 on: July 24, 2020, 04:03:41 PM »
Quote
If it were me and I wanted to hit an exact spot (within a mile or two)

You need up to date info from the cockpit to make a jump is that small of an area. McCoy was like a co-pilot getting information on a constant basis. you need to know exactly where you are prior to jumping..McNally also went into the cockpit.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 04:04:13 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3021 on: July 25, 2020, 09:51:39 AM »
Fcastle, if you listen to the podcast with McNally he goes through the whole hijacking. including the freefall spin, losing the money. what he could see during his decent and a hard landing..his story didn't change from a podcast a couple years ago..it gives an excellent view into the criminal mind. he had the co-pilot open the backdoor. both were worried of being sucked out the back.

The podcast was really well produced. this was why he wouldn't let me quote or say anything publicly he told me until it was released.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3022 on: July 25, 2020, 12:41:52 PM »
More from McNaly sent to me back in may about the chutes..

The reserve chute:  easy to clip on but needed help with the harness.  Never put on a harness before that.  Told AA I wanted 5 parachutes & 2 harnesses; I expected back chutes & front too.  When I saw they delivered only reserve chutes, I looked at my watch & determined that I didn't have time to demand back chutes !!!! I was pissed & knew they were trying to kill me.  Time was up, I had to go with it.  I asked AA to send in somebody to show me how to put on a harness.  A dude came on & I could see that he didn't know what he was doing so I told him to get off the plane !!!! I was right---he was an FBI agent sent aboard to stop me. As it was, I kept him 15' from me to demonstrate how to do the harness.  I was able to have the 4 stewardesses help me get the harness on.  Gave those girls $ 2,000 in tips after they said they'd keep it.  Yeah, we won't turn it in.  They lied !!!!  When I learned that I was pissed !!!! 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3023 on: July 25, 2020, 04:16:05 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

The co-pilot's response makes sense, given the facts. Fact-1 is there was a considerable dark space between SEA and the next center of light pollution, Portland-Vancouver. This gives ample time for the pilot's eyes to dark adapt so they are going to be dark-adapted and sensitive to light by the time Portland-Vancouver appears ahead.

Fact-2 NOAA/NASA skyglow chart for 1970 north-west region. This was presented once before. An estimate of the sky glow ahead they might have seen - note from the NOAA chart that the sky glow area  around Portland-Vancouver is well defined in 1970. Thus, Rataczak's statement makes sense given the facts in play.  If R's observation was made around 8:05, Cooper bails some 10-12 minutes later when the light glow of Portland is even closer.   
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 04:19:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3024 on: July 25, 2020, 04:30:05 PM »
They would have to be close to Portland to make any ground detection..8:05 is way out of the area to see lights with heavy cloud cover..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3025 on: July 25, 2020, 04:33:57 PM »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3026 on: July 25, 2020, 04:53:28 PM »
Thanks, Shut. I loved seeing the Aurora Borealis from ABOVE. Never thought about what that might look like.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3027 on: July 25, 2020, 05:42:46 PM »
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They would have to be close to Portland to make any ground detection..8:05 is way out of the area to see lights with heavy cloud cover..

The pilots probably had complete eye dark adaption by the time they took off from Seattle at 7:36 PM PST.  According to the FBI map, at 8:05 PM PST the airliner would have been 40 statute miles northwest of Portland International Airport and in the Kelso area.

The cockpit lights of aircraft in the 1971 time frame, and earlier, were designed to facilitate eye dark adaption by the use of red lighting and luminous paint on the instruments.  This is not as important in the modern day aircraft.

Kermit's quote of Rataczak indicates that in addition to the several cloud layers and overcast ("undercast") below the airliner, there were also clouds and an overcast above the airliner and that would eliminate even star light.  Consequently, the airliner would have to rely only on the aircraft instrumentation with nothing but "glow" from some urban areas being visible as they passed.   
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3028 on: July 25, 2020, 06:49:11 PM »
Does anyone have a copy of the 302s/memos that indicate the FBI revised their jump and LZ sites? Orchards and Hochinson, from Battleground and Amboy.

I can't find my copies. Thanks.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3029 on: July 25, 2020, 07:56:22 PM »
 So if Rataczak is to be believed, 305 was north of the metro Portland area when Cooper jumped. Therefore, one can logically conclude that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River south of Tena Bar. After all, jumping near PDX is in the middle of the Portland metro area.

All of that said, how does the money arrive at Tena Bar if the FBI Flight Path is correct, and Cooper did not land in the Columbia River?

The only logical conclusion would be that he walked.

Well, there are a few major flaws with this scenario.

1) It entails Cooper travelling a good 30 to 40 miles that evening.

2) It necessitates Cooper walking through populated areas carrying a large white 20 lbs. bag of cash.

3) Even if he utilized the railroad tracks, he would have to literally travel through downtown Vancouver before either continuing north up to Ridgefield, where he would then have to cross over Lake River via the River "S" Bridge before walking another 8 miles south to Tena Bar...or he would have to walk 8  miles north up to Tena Bar from the Vancouver railroad yard, all the while avoiding cars and people while carrying the aforementioned 20 lbs of ransom before walking the same 8 miles back to Vancouver to leave the area.

BZZZZZZ.

None of that makes any sense.

What does make sense is that the jet flew the Western Flight Path, he jumped near the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge, he walked south via the only road out of the area which coincidentally brought him to Tena Bar, he temporarily buried the ransom before he walked into town, and the rest is history.

By the way, regarding the testimony of some who claim that they heard 305 fly right over their homes...perhaps what they actually heard were the F-106s which were--you guessed it--tracking 305 from a position several miles east of the airliner.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK