Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1197953 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5835 on: March 06, 2021, 05:36:48 PM »
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I also have a large amount of sand taken in 2017 ish but I believe it's all surface sand and not far below.

put some it on a slide and look for diatoms!  40x-100x will do it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 05:38:44 PM by georger »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5836 on: March 06, 2021, 05:38:10 PM »
The important thing is to get samples as close to the money find spot as possible and to get samples that have been underwater. In other words, close to the waterline.

Irrespective of what's been done or not done in the past, my primary interest relates to whether there are diatoms or not buried 12 inches or so down.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5837 on: March 06, 2021, 05:40:18 PM »
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The important thing is to get samples as close to the money find spot as possible and to get samples that have been underwater. In other words, close to the waterline.

Irrespective of what's been done or not done in the past, my primary interest relates to whether there are diatoms or not buried 12 inches or so down.

contact people who already know! why re-invent the wheel?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5838 on: March 06, 2021, 05:45:14 PM »
Are diatoms exclusive to one area on Tbar or the river itself?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5839 on: March 06, 2021, 05:50:31 PM »
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The important thing is to get samples as close to the money find spot as possible and to get samples that have been underwater. In other words, close to the waterline.

Irrespective of what's been done or not done in the past, my primary interest relates to whether there are diatoms or not buried 12 inches or so down.

contact people who already know! why re-invent the wheel?

Tom said they cannot migrate down through the sand. I believe this is a professional guess to some degree. I do not believe he has actually read anything definitive concerning this. Therefore, I pull some samples, he tests them, and we have our answer. Simple as that.

Moreover, it's critically important information.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5840 on: March 06, 2021, 05:51:52 PM »
I agree. I also agree different samples taken from different area's can also tell a story?
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5841 on: March 06, 2021, 07:04:27 PM »
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Start with the absolute ironclad basics:

1) The jet departed Seattle.

2) Cooper jumped.

3) The money was found on Tena Bar.

4) The jet landed in Reno.

Start your investigation knowing only that and start working outward.

---------------

I very much doubt there is any human error in my post regarding the ironclad things we know.

Actually there is. 3 and 4 should be swapped.


----------------

Replicating chaotic nature: They say that no two snowflakes are exactly alike. (I actually doubt that, but that's what 'they' say.) So take a snowflake. Does the fact that no other snowflake has ever replicated it mean that the first one did not exist?

----------------

Georger's nanny wasn't entirely wrong. We see the moon because it reflects light from the sun, which in fact IS on fire.

----------------

A watch found in the woods might very well have come from the sky. It's not uncommon at all for birds to pick up shiny objects, carry and deposit them somewhere else.


---------

Just sayin'...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5842 on: March 06, 2021, 11:46:33 PM »
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Start with the absolute ironclad basics:

1) The jet departed Seattle.

2) Cooper jumped.

3) The money was found on Tena Bar.

4) The jet landed in Reno.

Start your investigation knowing only that and start working outward.

---------------

I very much doubt there is any human error in my post regarding the ironclad things we know.

Actually there is. 3 and 4 should be swapped.


----------------

Replicating chaotic nature: They say that no two snowflakes are exactly alike. (I actually doubt that, but that's what 'they' say.) So take a snowflake. Does the fact that no other snowflake has ever replicated it mean that the first one did not exist?

----------------

Georger's nanny wasn't entirely wrong. We see the moon because it reflects light from the sun, which in fact IS on fire.

----------------

A watch found in the woods might very well have come from the sky. It's not uncommon at all for birds to pick up shiny objects, carry and deposit them somewhere else.


---------

Just sayin'...

I love it - Thanks! Anna would appreciate this. Thank you ... :congrats:
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5843 on: March 07, 2021, 02:22:00 AM »
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The important thing is to get samples as close to the money find spot as possible and to get samples that have been underwater. In other words, close to the waterline.

Irrespective of what's been done or not done in the past, my primary interest relates to whether there are diatoms or not buried 12 inches or so down.

contact people who already know! why re-invent the wheel?

Tom said they cannot migrate down through the sand. I believe this is a professional guess to some degree. I do not believe he has actually read anything definitive concerning this. Therefore, I pull some samples, he tests them, and we have our answer. Simple as that.

Moreover, it's critically important information.

Tom compared diatoms to sand particles as tiny fragile cells vs. boulders. Do the math.

Asterionella average cell size is 60–85 micrometers long by 2–4 micrometers wide. It forms colonies that often consist of eight cells, but can vary in length up to 20 cells in stable calm conditions. The longer chains are extremely fragile and usually break off to start new cell colonies..

Average river sand ranges in size from 0.0625mm - 2mm (2000 microns). Thus Tom's comparison was cell sized objects vs. boulders was correct. Moreover, diatoms are motile cells that require space and motion in order to function and stay healthy. They cannot develop to maturity and propagate in cramped spaces. They are programmed to multiply quickly and aggregate in large colonies as a defensive shield against outside forces (wave action, winds, sand motions, etc). They excrete a mucus as they move (slimy rocks).   

It strikes me you need the advice and counsel of someone who knows this subject matter well enough to offer you fact-based advice, before you start developing theories on your own. Otherwise your theories will not be taken seriously.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 05:27:29 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5844 on: March 07, 2021, 08:53:44 AM »
GEORGER, I'm not certain why you feel the need to advise me concerning how/when to handle my theories.

This information you're referencing--i.e., big boulders, small glass diatoms that are very fragile--is very important work from Tom. Part of the reason why is because it destroys the self-burial theory.

How so?

Tom stated that he found "whole" diatoms on 377's bill--although some may have been flattened. Moreover, he stated given that they're so fragile, they could not have migrated down throw the sand a foot or so to attach to the money. Tom said the diatoms would shatter in the process.

The thing is that the extremely fragile diatoms would also shatter during the wave and sand agitation process required to self-bury the bills. In other words, the sandy water along the waterline pounding on the three packets of twenties and burrowing them into the beach would also shatter the diatoms. Therefore, this would appear to destroy the self-bury theory which everything other than the money-being-buried-by-a-human-being theory requires.

The Tena Bar sand analysis should also answer whether this is true.

Even the scientific analysis points explicitly to the bills being exposed to the diatoms in a somewhat placid--not abrasive--river water scenario. Other than the June retrieval theory I have discussed, how is this possible?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5845 on: March 07, 2021, 09:24:31 AM »
As I stated before, thank you Mr. Kaye! I am forever indebted. I, for one, am not second guessing your scientific findings.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5846 on: March 07, 2021, 02:12:43 PM »
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GEORGER, I'm not certain why you feel the need to advise me concerning how/when to handle my theories.

This information you're referencing--i.e., big boulders, small glass diatoms that are very fragile--is very important work from Tom. Part of the reason why is because it destroys the self-burial theory.

How so?

Tom stated that he found "whole" diatoms on 377's bill--although some may have been flattened. Moreover, he stated given that they're so fragile, they could not have migrated down throw the sand a foot or so to attach to the money. Tom said the diatoms would shatter in the process.

The thing is that the extremely fragile diatoms would also shatter during the wave and sand agitation process required to self-bury the bills. In other words, the sandy water along the waterline pounding on the three packets of twenties and burrowing them into the beach would also shatter the diatoms. Therefore, this would appear to destroy the self-bury theory which everything other than the money-being-buried-by-a-human-being theory requires.

The Tena Bar sand analysis should also answer whether this is true.

Even the scientific analysis points explicitly to the bills being exposed to the diatoms in a somewhat placid--not abrasive--river water scenario. Other than the June retrieval theory I have discussed, how is this possible?
If what you are saying is accurate, and if I am understanding you correctly, then your theory that Cooper left the $5800 behind in the dark accidentally would also be out the window. My understanding is that you feel Cooper returned as the flood waters were covering the burial site dug it up but left behind three bundles accidentally. Those three bundles then self-buried to be found in 1980. If you now feel that self-burial is impossible, then how do you explain how the three bundles got there? Were they not dug up at all? Then how did they get any diatoms on them?
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5847 on: March 07, 2021, 04:13:20 PM »
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GEORGER, I'm not certain why you feel the need to advise me concerning how/when to handle my theories.

This information you're referencing--i.e., big boulders, small glass diatoms that are very fragile--is very important work from Tom. Part of the reason why is because it destroys the self-burial theory.

How so?

Tom stated that he found "whole" diatoms on 377's bill--although some may have been flattened. Moreover, he stated given that they're so fragile, they could not have migrated down throw the sand a foot or so to attach to the money. Tom said the diatoms would shatter in the process.

The thing is that the extremely fragile diatoms would also shatter during the wave and sand agitation process required to self-bury the bills. In other words, the sandy water along the waterline pounding on the three packets of twenties and burrowing them into the beach would also shatter the diatoms. Therefore, this would appear to destroy the self-bury theory which everything other than the money-being-buried-by-a-human-being theory requires.

The Tena Bar sand analysis should also answer whether this is true.

Even the scientific analysis points explicitly to the bills being exposed to the diatoms in a somewhat placid--not abrasive--river water scenario. Other than the June retrieval theory I have discussed, how is this possible?
If what you are saying is accurate, and if I am understanding you correctly, then your theory that Cooper left the $5800 behind in the dark accidentally would also be out the window. My understanding is that you feel Cooper returned as the flood waters were covering the burial site dug it up but left behind three bundles accidentally. Those three bundles then self-buried to be found in 1980. If you now feel that self-burial is impossible, then how do you explain how the three bundles got there? Were they not dug up at all? Then how did they get any diatoms on them?

No, my theory does  not involve self-burial. It involves DBC burying the cash temporarily before he walks into town eight miles down the road.

When DBC buried the money at Tena Bar he would have dug a hole and placed the money bag and loose packets into the same hole. Remember, he had to remove some of the packets (approx. 25%) from the bank bag before tying off the top with shroud lines.

Upon hearing of the historic (and it was historic) flooding in June of 1972, my theory is that he returned under cover of darkness to unearth the bank bag and loose packets. I speculate that at the time this was done the burial spot was already under a foot or two of water.

Therefore, DBC simply would have waded into the water--again at night--dug down a little bit until he could grab a portion of the money bag and pull it up from its watery grave. I believe he would have felt around for the loose packets too. Obviously once the bag is pulled up, the surrounding sand will settle back into this underwater hole thereby covering back over three packets that simply went unrecovered.

As time went on, the Columbia receded several feet back to its normal level and the burial spot would have once again dried out. Then, after years of erosion at Tena Bar, the rotting yet still buried packets would have been within a few inches of the surface of the beach when Brian Ingram came along and the rest is history.

Therefore, the three packets would have been exposed to the Columbia River water and diatoms during the June 1972 retrieval before being locked underground for another 7 1/2 years.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 04:22:14 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5848 on: March 07, 2021, 06:55:28 PM »
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GEORGER, I'm not certain why you feel the need to advise me concerning how/when to handle my theories.

This information you're referencing--i.e., big boulders, small glass diatoms that are very fragile--is very important work from Tom. Part of the reason why is because it destroys the self-burial theory.

How so?

Tom stated that he found "whole" diatoms on 377's bill--although some may have been flattened. Moreover, he stated given that they're so fragile, they could not have migrated down throw the sand a foot or so to attach to the money. Tom said the diatoms would shatter in the process.

The thing is that the extremely fragile diatoms would also shatter during the wave and sand agitation process required to self-bury the bills. In other words, the sandy water along the waterline pounding on the three packets of twenties and burrowing them into the beach would also shatter the diatoms. Therefore, this would appear to destroy the self-bury theory which everything other than the money-being-buried-by-a-human-being theory requires.

The Tena Bar sand analysis should also answer whether this is true.

Even the scientific analysis points explicitly to the bills being exposed to the diatoms in a somewhat placid--not abrasive--river water scenario. Other than the June retrieval theory I have discussed, how is this possible?
If what you are saying is accurate, and if I am understanding you correctly, then your theory that Cooper left the $5800 behind in the dark accidentally would also be out the window. My understanding is that you feel Cooper returned as the flood waters were covering the burial site dug it up but left behind three bundles accidentally. Those three bundles then self-buried to be found in 1980. If you now feel that self-burial is impossible, then how do you explain how the three bundles got there? Were they not dug up at all? Then how did they get any diatoms on them?

No, my theory does  not involve self-burial. It involves DBC burying the cash temporarily before he walks into town eight miles down the road.

When DBC buried the money at Tena Bar he would have dug a hole and placed the money bag and loose packets into the same hole. Remember, he had to remove some of the packets (approx. 25%) from the bank bag before tying off the top with shroud lines.

Upon hearing of the historic (and it was historic) flooding in June of 1972, my theory is that he returned under cover of darkness to unearth the bank bag and loose packets. I speculate that at the time this was done the burial spot was already under a foot or two of water.

Therefore, DBC simply would have waded into the water--again at night--dug down a little bit until he could grab a portion of the money bag and pull it up from its watery grave. I believe he would have felt around for the loose packets too. Obviously once the bag is pulled up, the surrounding sand will settle back into this underwater hole thereby covering back over three packets that simply went unrecovered.

As time went on, the Columbia receded several feet back to its normal level and the burial spot would have once again dried out. Then, after years of erosion at Tena Bar, the rotting yet still buried packets would have been within a few inches of the surface of the beach when Brian Ingram came along and the rest is history.

Therefore, the three packets would have been exposed to the Columbia River water and diatoms during the June 1972 retrieval before being locked underground for another 7 1/2 years.
Requiring the documented, official flight path to be wrong aside, I simply think that such a scenario is implausible.
“Completely unhinged”
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5849 on: March 07, 2021, 07:12:28 PM »
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GEORGER, I'm not certain why you feel the need to advise me concerning how/when to handle my theories.

This information you're referencing--i.e., big boulders, small glass diatoms that are very fragile--is very important work from Tom. Part of the reason why is because it destroys the self-burial theory.

How so?

Tom stated that he found "whole" diatoms on 377's bill--although some may have been flattened. Moreover, he stated given that they're so fragile, they could not have migrated down throw the sand a foot or so to attach to the money. Tom said the diatoms would shatter in the process.

The thing is that the extremely fragile diatoms would also shatter during the wave and sand agitation process required to self-bury the bills. In other words, the sandy water along the waterline pounding on the three packets of twenties and burrowing them into the beach would also shatter the diatoms. Therefore, this would appear to destroy the self-bury theory which everything other than the money-being-buried-by-a-human-being theory requires.

The Tena Bar sand analysis should also answer whether this is true.

Even the scientific analysis points explicitly to the bills being exposed to the diatoms in a somewhat placid--not abrasive--river water scenario. Other than the June retrieval theory I have discussed, how is this possible?
If what you are saying is accurate, and if I am understanding you correctly, then your theory that Cooper left the $5800 behind in the dark accidentally would also be out the window. My understanding is that you feel Cooper returned as the flood waters were covering the burial site dug it up but left behind three bundles accidentally. Those three bundles then self-buried to be found in 1980. If you now feel that self-burial is impossible, then how do you explain how the three bundles got there? Were they not dug up at all? Then how did they get any diatoms on them?

No, my theory does  not involve self-burial. It involves DBC burying the cash temporarily before he walks into town eight miles down the road.

When DBC buried the money at Tena Bar he would have dug a hole and placed the money bag and loose packets into the same hole. Remember, he had to remove some of the packets (approx. 25%) from the bank bag before tying off the top with shroud lines.

Upon hearing of the historic (and it was historic) flooding in June of 1972, my theory is that he returned under cover of darkness to unearth the bank bag and loose packets. I speculate that at the time this was done the burial spot was already under a foot or two of water.

Therefore, DBC simply would have waded into the water--again at night--dug down a little bit until he could grab a portion of the money bag and pull it up from its watery grave. I believe he would have felt around for the loose packets too. Obviously once the bag is pulled up, the surrounding sand will settle back into this underwater hole thereby covering back over three packets that simply went unrecovered.

As time went on, the Columbia receded several feet back to its normal level and the burial spot would have once again dried out. Then, after years of erosion at Tena Bar, the rotting yet still buried packets would have been within a few inches of the surface of the beach when Brian Ingram came along and the rest is history.

Therefore, the three packets would have been exposed to the Columbia River water and diatoms during the June 1972 retrieval before being locked underground for another 7 1/2 years.
Requiring the documented, official flight path to be wrong aside, I simply think that such a scenario is implausible.

Yet embracing a boat-corpse theory that requires self-burying packets (which I've showed is not consistent with the science) is plausible?

I can easily replicate my theory. I simply dig a hole, bury cash, wait for the river to rise, unearth most of the cash, and I'm done.

Replicate your theory. Give that a shot.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK