Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1192748 times)

snowmman · « **Reply #6540 on:** September 13, 2021, 01:12:26 PM »

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". . . . . Caterpillar Island was created entirely from dredged materials."? I doubt that. Caterpillar Island is a solid piece of real estate and not dredged materials.

huh? see the maps I just posted ...it shows the depth of Upper Willow bar. (maps from late 1800s)
agrees with the Chaucer info?

Lewis and Clark mention what is now Vancouver Lake. Did they mention the area of what is now known as Caterpillar Island as being an "island"?

Note "no island depicted" in this 1863 Survey
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Early Caterpillar Island ...
The 1863 Washington Territory Cadastral Survey (Tax Survey) for T3N R1W shows George Beaty and David Sturgess having Donation Land Claims covering most of the area of today's Caterpillar Island. David Sturgess (Claim No.46, 164.60 acres) was to the south and George Beaty's claim (Claim No.45, 176.45 acres) was to the north. There was no island depicted.

The 1888, U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey's "Columbia River Sheet No.6, Fales Landing to Portland" (Chart No.6145) has Post Office Lake named. Other nearby features are "Lake River" (Lake River) and "Shallowpool Lake", today's Shillapoo Lake located south of Post Office Lake. Between Shillapoo Lake and the Columbia River is a stretch labeled "Upper Willow Bar" which runs from "Hewlett's Pt." (Hewlett Point) south to "Round Lake" (still Round Lake) north. "Upper Willow Bar" is today's Frenchmans Bar and Caterpillar Island.

On the Oregon side across from Post Office Lake is "Lower Willow Bar", the location of today's Willow Bar Islands, and "Willow Bar Pt.", today's Willow Point. "Lower Willow Bar" is shown as a mixture of small islands and sloughs

"Upper Willow Bar" ...
The area of Frenchman's Bar and Caterpillar Island was at once time known as "Upper Willow Bar", with nearby Sauvie Island's Willow Bar Islands being the "Lower Willow Bar".

Chaucer · « **Reply #6541 on:** September 13, 2021, 01:35:24 PM »

Quote

". . . . . Caterpillar Island was created entirely from dredged materials."? I doubt that. Caterpillar Island is a solid piece of real estate and not dredged materials.

Your personal opinions aside, this is a documented fact shared by an expert in the matter.

That said, I am sure that in the decades that followed the dredging, the spoils would have had plenty of time to settle and stabilize. Buildings are built on transferred fill all the time - frequently mere years after being put there.

I'll continue to communicate with Keith for more information about it.

snowmman · « **Reply #6542 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:04:31 PM »

I'm struck by the similarity of two similar unsolvable dilemmas:

1) How did 2 cans (empty? unknown) of Sioux City Sarsaparilla arrive in the same sand layer as the found money. And why were they relatively close together (assumed within the span of digging by Palmer, or less). I am also assuming they are from the same six pack!

2) How did the found money arrive there. And why 3 apparent packets close together? Did the rubber bands serve as a six-pack holder?

There are both the same problem. Just different materials.

The cans were distributed sometime between 1971 and 1980 to someone, somewhere.

The money was distributed in 1971.

We don't have any decomposition info on the cans.

But: we basically can't determine the origin or length of time, of anything found on Tena Bar in 1980.

What extra info can be deduced from the money to help? Only it's condition. Well, TK would also say diatoms. But we have no experiments that show how to create the bill conditions.

So it's all speculation.

I posted pics of aluminum and other cans that travelled through dredge on the other subtopic accidentally.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6543 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:10:11 PM »

I think the best we can do is eliminate things so as to narrow the range of possibilities. For example, some guy on DB DZ suggested that the money arrived to Tena Bar via the Lewis River. This was the only theory literally laughed at by Keith. It would pass at least two dams among other issues. As Keith stated, the best - perhaps only - explanation is that it entered the Columbia River directly and was not transported there by a secondary water source.

snowmman · « **Reply #6544 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:12:54 PM »

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I think the best we can do is eliminate things so as to narrow the range of possibilities. For example, some guy on DB DZ suggested that the money arrived to Tena Bar via the Lewis River. This was the only theory literally laughed at by Keith. It would pass at least two dams among other issues. As Keith stated, the best - perhaps only - explanation is that it entered the Columbia River directly and was not transported there by a secondary water source.

Over the years, I've been surprised at the pushback on dredging as a possiblity.
The information that says "not possible" when you talk about dredging, seems very light..basically speculative.

I think the idea of "flotation" can be ruled out? I don't see how those packets of money would have floated? Chaucer, I think you mentioned flotation. How would that work (from any place before Tena Bar)

snowmman · « **Reply #6545 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:15:00 PM »

No currency straps.

I was thinking about what extra info in the bills exists, but has been ignored.

If you accept that there were currency straps when Cooper got the money, and none when it was found, then they were removed, probably by some natural cause.

the paper on currency straps isn't as robust as currency. And the "glue" for closing the strap was probably moisture activated? So I guess it would get undone quickly in water?

I wonder if the lack of currency straps might help point to something. Maybe action through dredge.

If rubber band fragments were on the found money, and not overlapping the area where straps would have been, the two are not inconsistent. If the rubber bands were overlapping the area where straps would have been, it's very confusing. But the evidence on rubber bands is thin.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6546 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:23:21 PM »

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I think the best we can do is eliminate things so as to narrow the range of possibilities. For example, some guy on DB DZ suggested that the money arrived to Tena Bar via the Lewis River. This was the only theory literally laughed at by Keith. It would pass at least two dams among other issues. As Keith stated, the best - perhaps only - explanation is that it entered the Columbia River directly and was not transported there by a secondary water source.

Over the years, I've been surprised at the pushback on dredging as a possiblity.
The information that says "not possible" when you talk about dredging, seems very light..basically speculative.

I think the idea of "flotation" can be ruled out? I don't see how those packets of money would have floated? Chaucer, I think you mentioned flotation. How would that work (from any place before Tena Bar)

I think the idea of the flotation of money packets by themselves has been ruled out. As TK demonstrated, they float, fan out, and then sink.

However, I don't know if the possiblity of the money bag with the money packed inside has been explored. I think it's possible. I'd like to be certain one way or the other.

The other possibility is that the money floated with the assistance of a piece of debris - a log or tree branch perhaps.

All that said, I think dredging is a possibility, but I'm not sure how that would fit into the diatom research. My sense is that the dredging theory has been questioned mostly by people who think Cooper landed safely and got away with the money.

snowmman · « **Reply #6547 on:** September 13, 2021, 02:57:57 PM »

I don't think flotation-by-log or branch works unless the money was still in the bag.

if it did float that way, then you also have to float the bag plus money, then make the bag continue away from the 3 packets.

the bag has to go all the way to where the 3 packets are, release 3 packets and then float away again? Unless you say it totally decomposes there, and only had 3 packets in it

I think floating bag on log/branch, seems too convoluted..Too many dependencies.

snowmman · « **Reply #6548 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:00:25 PM »

I think any story about Tena Bar money, has to include a prediction of whether the money stayed attached to Cooper on exit from plane. (if for example any human activity was involved with he money on landing)

Most likely it did not stay attached to Cooper.

For a lot of these theories, they're dependent on the money attach to Cooper working, until he lands with a canopy open or not open.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6549 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:04:50 PM »

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I don't think floatation-by-log or branch works unless the money was still in the bag.

Yes, the money would still be in the bag.

Quote

if it did float that way, then you also have to float the bag plus money, then make the bag continue away from the 3 packets.

the bag has to go all the way to where the 3 packets are, release 3 packets and then float away again? Unless you say it totally decomposes there, and only had 3 packets in it

Yes, the money would spill out of the bag at Tena Bar and the rest would wash away leaving only a fraction to be buried.

Quote

I think floating bag on log/branch, seems too convoluted..Too many dependencies.

I think it is the only reasonable conclusion to draw based on the evidence. It had to have gotten from near where the plane crossed over the Columbia River to Tena Bar. It didn't do that until months - perhaps years - later. The most likely scenario is that it was transported to Tena Bar via the flood water and buried by flood sediments.

Dredging is a possibility, but then you have to explain the diatoms...

Chaucer · « **Reply #6550 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:06:51 PM »

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I think any story about Tena Bar money, has to include a prediction of whether the money stayed attached to Cooper on exit from plane. (if for example any human activity was involved with he money on landing)

Most likely it did not stay attached to Cooper.

For a lot of these theories, they're dependent on the money attach to Cooper working, until he lands with a canopy open or not open.

I'm not sure that's true. Whether the money was attached to Cooper or not, it got wet months or years after the crime.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6551 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

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". . . . . Caterpillar Island was created entirely from dredged materials."? I doubt that. Caterpillar Island is a solid piece of real estate and not dredged materials.

huh? see the maps I just posted ...it shows the depth of Upper Willow bar. (maps from late 1800s)
agrees with the Chaucer info?

Lewis and Clark mention what is now Vancouver Lake. Did they mention the area of what is now known as Caterpillar Island as being an "island"?

Note "no island depicted" in this 1863 Survey
from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Early Caterpillar Island ...
The 1863 Washington Territory Cadastral Survey (Tax Survey) for T3N R1W shows George Beaty and David Sturgess having Donation Land Claims covering most of the area of today's Caterpillar Island. David Sturgess (Claim No.46, 164.60 acres) was to the south and George Beaty's claim (Claim No.45, 176.45 acres) was to the north. There was no island depicted.

The 1888, U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey's "Columbia River Sheet No.6, Fales Landing to Portland" (Chart No.6145) has Post Office Lake named. Other nearby features are "Lake River" (Lake River) and "Shallowpool Lake", today's Shillapoo Lake located south of Post Office Lake. Between Shillapoo Lake and the Columbia River is a stretch labeled "Upper Willow Bar" which runs from "Hewlett's Pt." (Hewlett Point) south to "Round Lake" (still Round Lake) north. "Upper Willow Bar" is today's Frenchmans Bar and Caterpillar Island.

On the Oregon side across from Post Office Lake is "Lower Willow Bar", the location of today's Willow Bar Islands, and "Willow Bar Pt.", today's Willow Point. "Lower Willow Bar" is shown as a mixture of small islands and sloughs

"Upper Willow Bar" ...
The area of Frenchman's Bar and Caterpillar Island was at once time known as "Upper Willow Bar", with nearby Sauvie Island's Willow Bar Islands being the "Lower Willow Bar".

I used to have a map (Dr. Meyer Louie has it now) put out by the US Government that listed the channel between what is now known as Caterpillar Island and the eastern shore of the Columbia River as a "mud flat". Someone apparently dredged that channel and there is a marina located there now.

Remember that the great Amazon, of DropZone fame, lived on her boat at that marina for several years.

snowmman · « **Reply #6552 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:09:56 PM »

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Dredging is a possibility, but then you have to explain the diatoms...

what's hard to explain about diatoms? The diatoms Tom found got on the money during dredging ?

Chaucer · « **Reply #6553 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:10:50 PM »

How did they not get diatoms on them sitting on the river bottom for three years?

snowmman · « **Reply #6554 on:** September 13, 2021, 03:12:03 PM »

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Remember that the great Amazon, of DropZone fame, lived on her boat at that marina for several years.

I do remember her. Of speed jumping fame. She described going 300mph? or something like that on a jump. And I remember when she had a chainsaw accident with her leg? (gruesome pic)

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1192748 times)

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Chaucer

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snowmman

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Chaucer

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snowmman

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snowmman

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Chaucer

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snowmman

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snowmman

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Chaucer

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Chaucer

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Robert99

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snowmman

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Chaucer

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snowmman

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