Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 615423 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6570 on: September 13, 2021, 04:37:31 PM »
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  I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?

If a money bag went to the bottom of the Columbia and was buried, why would any bills have diatoms on them? (from Nov 1971?)
Yes, this is my question too.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6571 on: September 13, 2021, 04:40:53 PM »
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  I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?

If a money bag went to the bottom of the Columbia and was buried, why would any bills have diatoms on them? (from Nov 1971?)
Yes, this is my question too.

I meant why would they have any diatoms in the trip to the bottom. I can imagine diatoms on the way back out.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6572 on: September 13, 2021, 04:44:49 PM »
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From TK's Nature paper:

"If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur."

Second, to be clear, I'm not dismissing dredging. I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?


I thought Tom K's experiments with flushing water thru stuff were relatively short duration?
I'm not sure why you think "rapid" means no accumulation?
His paper indicates that it was done on money packets that were immersed in water for “several minutes”. I don’t think dredging would allow fanning for that long, but perhaps it could?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6573 on: September 13, 2021, 04:52:03 PM »
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His paper indicates that it was done on money packets that were immersed in water for “several minutes”. I don’t think dredging would allow fanning for that long, but perhaps it could?

well that's the problem with trying to extrapolate from tom's limited experiments.
If tom did 2 minutes, there's no data on what happens if you do 1 minute.

and dredging "time" consists of time thru the pipe, onto the beach and then the time for the water to drain out of the slurry.
seems like that's lots of time.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 04:52:33 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6574 on: September 13, 2021, 04:57:27 PM »
Honestly I don’t know enough about the dredging process to comment on time. My only question would be:  how much of the time during and after dredging would the packets be fanned out?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6575 on: September 13, 2021, 04:59:07 PM »
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Honestly I don’t know enough about the dredging process to comment on time. My only question would be:  how much of the time during and after dredging would the packets be fanned out?


I think any stuff about bill fanout and diatom attachment is speculative. Not enough experimental evidence, regardless of what Tom K says.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6576 on: September 13, 2021, 05:27:47 PM »
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Honestly I don’t know enough about the dredging process to comment on time. My only question would be:  how much of the time during and after dredging would the packets be fanned out?

As an example of real science around that, you'd ask:
"What is the minimum distance between two bills, that's required, for diatom migration to occur?"

and design experiments around that.

diatoms are small, so the distance required is conceivably small. Unclear.
I think any stuff about bill fanout and diatom attachment is speculative. Not enough experimental evidence, regardless of what Tom K says.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 05:28:10 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6577 on: September 13, 2021, 05:54:07 PM »
In reading some of Tom’s old posts, he suggests that his findings “bring the dredge theory back into play”, but that he doesn’t think the money would survive the dredge machine. I don’t know if his opinion has changed.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6578 on: September 13, 2021, 06:17:26 PM »
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In reading some of Tom’s old posts, he suggests that his findings “bring the dredge theory back into play”, but that he doesn’t think the money would survive the dredge machine. I don’t know if his opinion has changed.

tom has no first or secondhand knowlege about dredging that anyone else doesn't already have.
anything he says about dredge survival should be dismissed as hearsay.

If cans and nails go thru a dredge, it tells me you can't tell what bills would do, without an experiment.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 06:18:35 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #6579 on: September 13, 2021, 08:44:54 PM »
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All,
Attached is the last and most conclusive diatom picture from 377's bill. It shows a completely intact A. formosa sandwiched between two layers of bills.  This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression. We have now examined all the fragments from 377's bill so this will be the last update.

Tom Kaye

dropbox.com/s/4zy2z54v3dr5lpm/Stub%201210-6N.jpg?dl=0   pic for those not registered
Here is another old post from Tom Kaye. Here is the relevant portion:

"This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression."

This would seem to suggest two things:

1. Money tightly packed into the bag would not acquire diatoms until the bills were out of the bag
2. The money had to have been fanned out in the water prior to burial

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #6580 on: September 13, 2021, 09:43:52 PM »
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Here is another old post from Tom Kaye. Here is the relevant portion:

"This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression."



Dunno why he uses the word compression? compression seems to be an analysis while buried?
we're not talking about during burial
where is the compression coming from?

Oh I see, he does say during burial.
But we all agree on that. Plus they're covered by sand?

how does that post apply to "during dredging" ??
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 09:45:11 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #6581 on: September 13, 2021, 09:52:15 PM »
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Here is another old post from Tom Kaye. Here is the relevant portion:

"This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression."



Dunno why he uses the word compression? compression seems to be an analysis while buried?
we're not talking about during burial
where is the compression coming from?

Oh I see, he does say during burial.
But we all agree on that. Plus they're covered by sand?

how does that post apply to "during dredging" ??
By compression, I assume he means such as inside of a bag or buried under sand. The money has to be fanned out to accumulate diatoms.

I only point this out to add to the discussion about the possibility of fanning out during the dredging process.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6582 on: September 13, 2021, 09:58:09 PM »
I think we can all agree there would be no bag compression after a auger dredgehead hits a canvas bag at the bottom of the columbia.

he's making up a story to fit the answer he wants.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6583 on: September 13, 2021, 10:15:32 PM »
Here is an ecosystem classification map of the Columbia River:
   
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Orange signifies fill material. As you can see from this map, all of Caterpillar Island and most of Tena Bar are made up of fill/dredge spoils.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #6584 on: September 13, 2021, 11:59:38 PM »
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Here is another old post from Tom Kaye. Here is the relevant portion:

"This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression."



Dunno why he uses the word compression? compression seems to be an analysis while buried?
we're not talking about during burial
where is the compression coming from?

Oh I see, he does say during burial.
But we all agree on that. Plus they're covered by sand?

how does that post apply to "during dredging" ??
By compression, I assume he means such as inside of a bag or buried under sand. The money has to be fanned out to accumulate diatoms.

I only point this out to add to the discussion about the possibility of fanning out during the dredging process.

We may never get any discussion or clarification from Tom.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 12:00:03 AM by georger »