Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 615442 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6555 on: September 13, 2021, 03:13:17 PM »
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How did they not get diatoms on them sitting on the river bottom for three years?

You're saying Tom Kaye's data somehow proves the diatoms could not have been attached during dredging? I'm not sure I read it that way.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6556 on: September 13, 2021, 03:15:06 PM »
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I think any story about Tena Bar money, has to include a prediction of whether the money stayed attached to Cooper on exit from plane. (if for example any human activity was involved with he money on landing)

Most likely it did not stay attached to Cooper.

For a lot of these theories, they're dependent on the money attach to Cooper working, until he lands with a canopy open or not open.
I'm not sure that's true. Whether the money was attached to Cooper or not, it got wet months or years after the crime.

Well sure, the decomposition sure looks like it requires moisture.
But talking about when the moisture/decomposition happened? How do you know?
Also, it's moist on Tena Bar, right.

I think saying that the fungi/mildew required were not present in the sand, requiring other location, could be true. Don't know.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6557 on: September 13, 2021, 03:16:10 PM »
My understanding is that the money had to be fanned out for the diatoms to attached themselves to the interior of the bills. How would that occur during the dredging process?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just trying to visualize how.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6558 on: September 13, 2021, 03:16:45 PM »
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Remember that the great Amazon, of DropZone fame, lived on her boat at that marina for several years.

I do remember her. Of speed jumping fame. She described going 300mph? or something like that on a jump. And I remember when she had a chainsaw accident with her leg? (gruesome pic)

Amazon held the record on speed jumping.  She told me that on the "pull out" from the dive that she was overtaking cars on a nearby road.  She also broke several shroud lines on the opening.  When did the chainsaw accident happen?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6559 on: September 13, 2021, 03:21:21 PM »
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Remember that the great Amazon, of DropZone fame, lived on her boat at that marina for several years.

I do remember her. Of speed jumping fame. She described going 300mph? or something like that on a jump. And I remember when she had a chainsaw accident with her leg? (gruesome pic)

Amazon held the record on speed jumping.  She told me that on the "pull out" from the dive that she was overtaking cars on a nearby road.  She also broke several shroud lines on the opening.  When did the chainsaw accident happen?

2009 or 2008? she posted a pic at some point showing stitches..

in 2009  Amazon said
May 11, 2009

Still no jumps this year..and now... it will be even longer... to let my leg heal....in the battle of chainsaw v left knee.. chainsaw wins

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6560 on: September 13, 2021, 03:31:52 PM »
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My understanding is that the money had to be fanned out for the diatoms to attached themselves to the interior of the bills. How would that occur during the dredging process?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just trying to visualize how.

Tom Kaye's set of experiments is not broad enough to say definitely when diatoms attach or don't attach.

And how do you know the formation of the bills as they go thru a dredge pipe, if they did?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6561 on: September 13, 2021, 03:32:47 PM »
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My understanding is that the money had to be fanned out for the diatoms to attached themselves to the interior of the bills. How would that occur during the dredging process?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just trying to visualize how.

Not fanned out. Read Tom's pdf again. Tom did not find 'toms where they should be in the interior of the bills IF the bills had fanned out. That is why Tom says: The inner degraded edge where the SEM samples were taken from showed no accumulations, suggesting the bills had congealed into a solid lump (consistent with the condition that the bills were found in), preventing any further diatom infiltration.

*If Tom is right, the obvious implication is: the bills were already a congealed mass when they were finally exposed to diatoms ?  If that is true, the money was already in-situ (buried in the sand at T Bar) when they finally got exposed to diatom baring water. ?   ;)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 03:37:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6562 on: September 13, 2021, 03:33:23 PM »
I'm kind of confused.

You're suggesting that bills floating on a log in a money bag, collect diatoms differently than bills being dredged off the bottom of the columbia?

Or are you saying all theories are inconsistent with TK's data?

In your theory, how are diatoms attaching in a way consistent with how you read TK's data?

even the thing you quoted from TK is just speculation about how bills accumulate diatoms.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 03:36:04 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6563 on: September 13, 2021, 03:40:03 PM »
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I'm kind of confused.

You're suggesting that bills floating on a log in a money bag, collect diatoms differently than bills being dredged off the bottom of the columbia?

Or are you saying all theories are inconsistent with TK's data?

In your theory, how are diatoms attaching in a way consistent with how you read TK's data?

even the thing you quoted from TK is just speculation about how bills accumulate diatoms.

If this is for me, Tom says: 'The inner degraded edge where the SEM samples were taken from showed no accumulations, suggesting the bills had congealed into a solid lump (consistent with the condition that the bills were found in), preventing any further diatom infiltration.'

It sounds like Tom is saying 'diatom exposure happened after' the bills were a congealed mass ? Maybe Tom needs to address this ?

Im just thought-processing here.

Tom says diatom accumulations were found ONLY or mainly, at the edges of the bills, not in the interior of the bill. Therefore no fanning out ?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 03:44:04 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6564 on: September 13, 2021, 03:41:38 PM »
From TK's Nature paper:

"If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur."

Second, to be clear, I'm not dismissing dredging. I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6565 on: September 13, 2021, 03:46:04 PM »
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From TK's Nature paper:

"If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur."

Second, to be clear, I'm not dismissing dredging. I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?

Im trying to figure out WHERE Tom found diatoms .... interior of bills ... only at edges ?  Maybe Tom is not being clear about this? Here is the illustration he gives.

TOM? Come and help!  :)

Keep in mind, TK examined three other bills and found NO diatoms at all! He examines 377's bill and suddenly there are diatoms - only at the edges? 

If the bundles were already a congealed mass when finally they get exposed to diatoms then ... that sets a range of time (date) after which the money can now be exposed to diatom bearing water. If that scenario is true, then the money was buried, became a congealed mass with the passage of time, sand erodes, and finally the congealed mass starts to get exposed to diatom bearing surface water leaking down a few inches ... and the interior of the mass never gets exposed to diatoms at all. That would explain why diatoms are only found at the edges of the bills and none or few in the interiors of some bills, and some bills on the interior of the congealed mass, no diatoms at all.

Tom needs to clarify where he found 'toms and where he didn't find 'toms - on each of his four bills examined. That architecture may set a date and a method of exposure to diatom bearing surface water. Especially the dominant form found, a-formosa which is extremely fragile and cannot swim through sand!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 04:08:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6566 on: September 13, 2021, 04:04:21 PM »
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From TK's Nature paper:

"If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur."

Second, to be clear, I'm not dismissing dredging. I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?


I thought Tom K's experiments with flushing water thru stuff were relatively short duration?
I'm not sure why you think "rapid" means no accumulation?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6567 on: September 13, 2021, 04:16:30 PM »
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  I'm merely asking how a money bag could rest on the bottom of Columbia for years, but only have spring diatoms on them? Also, the bills had to have fanned out for a period of time for exposure to occur. How could that happen in the rather rapid process of dredging?

If a money bag went to the bottom of the Columbia and was buried, why would any bills have diatoms on them? (from Nov 1971?)
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6568 on: September 13, 2021, 04:20:20 PM »
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From TK's Nature paper:

"If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur."

Given the fragile nature of the diatoms, would it even be possible for them to survive or remain attached to the money after passing through the dredge ? Being essentially sand blasted ? Or, if you had a bill with diatoms on it, and then washed it in the sink, would they be washed off ? 
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6569 on: September 13, 2021, 04:33:47 PM »
reading a thesis

interesting map on page 40 from the Army Corp of Engineers in 1975
file:///home/kevin/Downloads/LongSeason.pdf page 40

Beach nourishment sites. Covers Tena Bar area
See "Willow Bar" label in river, and 96.6  area I guess?
shows the extent of beach replenisment all over that area
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 04:34:23 PM by snowmman »