Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 553470 times)

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Thanked: 132 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5760 on: March 03, 2021, 03:51:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Hopefully, Dudeman will comment on the parachuting aspects of your remarks.  And I will comment on your flight path remarks.  As has been posted here numerous times, if the airliner was on the Western Flight Path (and it was), it would be flying headings as directed by the Seattle ATC controller and not tracking directly to or from a VORTAC navigation station.  Since 1971 was well before the GPS navigation era, the flight crew could not immediately determine from their instruments their exact location.  Consequently, Rataczak has stated that he told someone on the radio (it's not in the heavily redacted Seattle Center radio transcripts) to "mark your maps" when he thought Cooper has jumped.

If the airliner had been tracking down the centerline of V-23 at the time Cooper jumped, all Rataczak would have to say to whoever he was talking to on the radio, "Cooper jumped, we are inbound on radial so-and-so of the so-and-so VORTAC, and so-many DME miles from the station."

Rataczak's "mark your maps" remark supports the belief that the airliner was on the WFP and didn't know its exact position when Cooper jumped.

I should clarify something here.

According to Ammerman, he did not provide any headings for 305. Capt Scott determined for himself the route he opted to take. ATC simply made certain other aircraft stayed out of the way and directed the F-106's as well as the T-33.

Obviously 305 flew south via V23 out of Seattle. However, as is not uncommon, Scott doglegged the portion that went from Maylay to either Canby or Eugene (I'm not certain). This had the benefit of offering a more direct path south that largely avoided the major population centers of downtown Vancouver and downtown Portland. This essentially put the jet on a due south heading very near the Columbia River.

Importantly, Ammerman told me that once the T-33 pulled in behind 305 ( which appears to be at a point near Ridgefield) that he provide the T-33 one heading only (south) as it trailed 305. Therefore, it suggests that 305 was not flying all over the place in and around Vancouver, PDX and Portland as depicted on the FBI Flight Path map. Otherwise, the T-33 heading would have been changed to replicate 305's path.

Okay, so Scott did his own navigation which was basically "dead reckoning" along the WFP.  The ground track of the WFP is basically 180 degrees with respect to the grid lines, so Scott would also have to determine his wind correction angle to stay on that track.  He could then point the aircraft to the appropriate heading, turn on his autopilot, and it would keep the airliner on the WFP track.  But Scott basically would not know his precise location along that track at any point without doing some computations involving cross radials from two or more VORTACs.

I imagine that Ammerman and the other Seattle ATC controllers had the top facility managers looking over their shoulders during the time the airliner was their responsibility.  Also, Ammerman probably had at least one data assistant to help him as he worked the intercept problems for the various chase aircraft.  He and the other controllers were very busy during that time.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5761 on: March 03, 2021, 04:49:17 PM »
Quote
If the airliner had been tracking down the centerline of V-23 at the time Cooper jumped, all Rataczak would have to say to whoever he was talking to on the radio, "Cooper jumped, we are inbound on radial so-and-so of the so-and-so VORTAC, and so-many DME miles from the station."

Rataczak's "mark your maps" remark supports the belief that the airliner was on the WFP and didn't know its exact position when Cooper jumped.
That's an assumption of yours with no concrete evidence to support it.

Quote
ATC simply made certain other aircraft stayed out of the way and directed the F-106's as well as the T-33.
The F-106s were essentially remotely flown via computer. The pilots did little except takeoff and land.

"A datalink with NORAD's SAGE system meant that radio silence could be maintained throughout the intercept, while an autopilot allowed the ground controllers to "fly" the aircraft during the final approach to the target. A Tactical Situation Display (TSD) between the pilot's feet showed a moving map of the route across the ground during the intercept."

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Moreover, I'm dubious that a civilian ATC such as Ammerman would have the authority to order headings and altitude for a military aircraft. Certainly, civilian and military ATC would work together, but I'm not convinced a civilian like Ammerman could actually tell the military aircraft what to do. Could be wrong about that, but I'd like to see confirmation.

Quote
However, as is not uncommon, Scott doglegged the portion that went from Maylay to either Canby or Eugene (I'm not certain).
If you have evidence of this, I'd love to see it.

Quote
This had the benefit of offering a more direct path south that largely avoided the major population centers of downtown Vancouver and downtown Portland.
First, the 305 was never over concentrated population centers while Cooper was on board. Second, on the off chance Cooper left the bomb on board to detonate, 305 was never over Vancouver and routed along I-5 which obviously would not be populated. Any course change like the one you suggest is unnecessary.

Quote
Importantly, Ammerman told me that once the T-33 pulled in behind 305 ( which appears to be at a point near Ridgefield)
Wrong. The T-33 pilot says that he was directed toward Lake Oswego, then turned south three miles behind 305 which means the T-33 intercepted 305 near Lake Oswego and not Ridgefield. (Norjak: The Investigation of D.B. Cooper, Himmelsbach, p. 46-47)
Quote
Therefore, it suggests that 305 was not flying all over the place in and around Vancouver, PDX and Portland as depicted on the FBI Flight Path map.
See above.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1626
  • Thanked: 378 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5762 on: March 03, 2021, 05:25:44 PM »
I worked at Hughes during the time they were making the MA1 avionics that allowed the SAGE system to control the F106 autopilot and direct it to a radar target. It was fantastic when it worked but the reliability was awful. I would not be surprised at all if the Cooper F106 chase planes were manually piloted. Had they been SAGE controlled they would have had no trouble intercepting the 727.

377
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 05:26:43 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5763 on: March 03, 2021, 05:39:28 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I worked at Hughes during the time they were making the MA1 avionics that allowed the SAGE system to control the F106 autopilot and direct it to a radar target. It was fantastic when it worked but the reliability was awful. I would not be surprised at all if the Cooper F106 chase planes were manually piloted. Had they been SAGE controlled they would have had no trouble intercepting the 727.

377
Thanks, 377. Yeah, the system was wonky and required over 60 updates over the life of the system. It’s certainly possible the jets were manually piloted. I’m more interested in the SOP for civilian ATC and military aircraft. Would Ammerman have been able to order those pilots? I don’t know, but at first glance I’m doubtful. Maybe.

I want to underscore that this is different than SAGE itself not working. SAGE had an active machines and standby machines in case the active ones failed. The SAGE radar itself would never “not work”.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 05:46:55 PM by Chaucer »
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • Thanked: 38 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5764 on: March 03, 2021, 06:29:52 PM »
I can't comment on the flight path, the winds, or the likelihood of his landing in the water. But as for the parachute control... If he's under the non steerable chute, he has negligible control and is at the mercy of the winds. If he effected the four line release mod described above (with his knife), he would have perhaps 3-4 mph of drive/control to work with, if that. If he did land in the water, that would be extremely problematic for him. That canopy does not release from the harness. Unless he had his knife in his hands when he landed, it would be extremely difficult to get to. If the canopy lands on top of him, that's a problem. If there are ground winds and he's being drug through the water, that's a problem. Getting out of the harness while flopping about in the water would be difficult, especially with whatever else he might have had tied to him. 377, would that harness have B-12's on the leg straps? If so, that might make it a bit easier to get out of. (Those are snaps that undo the leg straps, as opposed to having to loosen them and pull your legs out of them.)
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5765 on: March 03, 2021, 07:14:01 PM »
He would also likely have 25lbs of money tied to him. If he landed in the Columbia that night, his survival would be nearly impossible.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1939
  • Thanked: 290 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5766 on: March 03, 2021, 07:35:35 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
If the airliner had been tracking down the centerline of V-23 at the time Cooper jumped, all Rataczak would have to say to whoever he was talking to on the radio, "Cooper jumped, we are inbound on radial so-and-so of the so-and-so VORTAC, and so-many DME miles from the station."

Rataczak's "mark your maps" remark supports the belief that the airliner was on the WFP and didn't know its exact position when Cooper jumped.
That's an assumption of yours with no concrete evidence to support it.

Quote
ATC simply made certain other aircraft stayed out of the way and directed the F-106's as well as the T-33.
The F-106s were essentially remotely flown via computer. The pilots did little except takeoff and land.

"A datalink with NORAD's SAGE system meant that radio silence could be maintained throughout the intercept, while an autopilot allowed the ground controllers to "fly" the aircraft during the final approach to the target. A Tactical Situation Display (TSD) between the pilot's feet showed a moving map of the route across the ground during the intercept."

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Moreover, I'm dubious that a civilian ATC such as Ammerman would have the authority to order headings and altitude for a military aircraft. Certainly, civilian and military ATC would work together, but I'm not convinced a civilian like Ammerman could actually tell the military aircraft what to do. Could be wrong about that, but I'd like to see confirmation.

Quote
However, as is not uncommon, Scott doglegged the portion that went from Maylay to either Canby or Eugene (I'm not certain).
If you have evidence of this, I'd love to see it.

Quote
This had the benefit of offering a more direct path south that largely avoided the major population centers of downtown Vancouver and downtown Portland.
First, the 305 was never over concentrated population centers while Cooper was on board. Second, on the off chance Cooper left the bomb on board to detonate, 305 was never over Vancouver and routed along I-5 which obviously would not be populated. Any course change like the one you suggest is unnecessary.

Quote
Importantly, Ammerman told me that once the T-33 pulled in behind 305 ( which appears to be at a point near Ridgefield)
Wrong. The T-33 pilot says that he was directed toward Lake Oswego, then turned south three miles behind 305 which means the T-33 intercepted 305 near Lake Oswego and not Ridgefield. (Norjak: The Investigation of D.B. Cooper, Himmelsbach, p. 46-47)
Quote
Therefore, it suggests that 305 was not flying all over the place in and around Vancouver, PDX and Portland as depicted on the FBI Flight Path map.
See above.

You really need to learn how to communicate civilly.

I will not bother addressing every point because I don't feel like it. That said, much of what I asserted came from Ammerman himself. Whether you want to believe he was directing military aircraft or not is irrelevant. The fact is, he did.

Also, regardless of what Himmelsbach stated in his book, according to Ammerman the T-33 was directed north over Sauvie Island then in behind 305 as I stated northwest of PDX. Again, this is according to Ammerman.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1939
  • Thanked: 290 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5767 on: March 03, 2021, 07:44:16 PM »
A word to anyone who wants to challenge me regarding the Western Flight Path in an arrogant and condescending manner...put up or shut up.

Again, let's have a debate like that LIVE during a podcast or Facebook LIVE event or something else like it where things can be responded to in real time and a more comprehensive answer can be forthcoming.

Otherwise, simply avoid making pronouncements like "Wrong." At a minimum if you're going to do that, know what the F you're talking about.

Beyond that I welcome and enjoy a collegial discussion and my theories being challenged. It's just tiring to be lectured to.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5768 on: March 03, 2021, 08:17:45 PM »
My response to your post was neither "uncivil" nor "condescending. It was an unemotional recitation of facts.  I think everyone here knows that. Shutter has asked all of us to be more courteous and I respect him enough to agree. If he finds my posts to be "uncivil", "arrogant", "condescending" or "dickish", then he can alert me and remove the post.

Why do you take every comment that disagrees with you so personally? It's not personal to me. I don't even know you to make it personal.

Also, I did more than say "Wrong." I literally provided you with the facts and the source material.

Lastly, I'm not interested in a public, promoted "event" with which to debate you. That might be more your style, but it's not mine. I'm doing fine right here. We'll let people judge who is right.

Take care.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 10:14:00 PM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9346
  • Thanked: 930 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5769 on: March 03, 2021, 09:55:19 PM »
Quote
A word to anyone who wants to challenge me regarding the Western Flight Path in an arrogant and condescending manner...put up or shut up.


Ok, as long as I've been on any of these Cooper boards heads will bump into one another. happens here, the DZ, even on The Sleuths thread. it can be controlled to an extent. it also occurs with other crime threads, shows etc. the main problem appears to be mindset. once that happens everything else is wrong. Eric, even the quote I put at the top is a bit arrogant along with a threat to back off. it gets frustrating, I know.

We are all looking for the samething, no. I realize some people here have a problem with others. welcome to the world. we have to find a way to work the problems. I live in Florida and don't do squat, says one Robert Blevins. IMO, it doesn't matter where you live or what you have done. I don't believe I give anyone a problem here. I might ride you a little. everyone's input is needed. none of it is going to be 100% positive. no such animal. we need some common ground here peeps.

I have noticed the discussion has picked up in the last month or so, I don't know if it's from setting the tone or you guys decided to start chatting again. either way, it's a win win. If something is presented on this board, lets review rather than striking it down. I'm not innocent of this by no means but I try to return fire with proof vs poking fun at the person. if you believe the WFP is a joke, save it for the comedy hour at the local bar near you! or attack the evidence and not the person. personally, I don't think it's that funny. I can't even give you an honest answer if Cooper walked away or is pushing daisy's.

Some of the members here are not as educated with the case as others. it's not grounds for them to be told to read the thread vs answering the question. I get tired of reading "sorry, if this has been asked before" we are all here for answers. questions will be asked, sometimes over and over. show some respect and help them out. I don't have much more to say kids. you guys can contact me at anytime if you feel I said something wrong or just want to ask a question or have input about the thread...

Shutter
 
The following users thanked this post: Parrotheadvol, andrade1812, haggarknew, Chaucer

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
  • Thanked: 393 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5770 on: March 03, 2021, 11:30:14 PM »
I thought this was supposed to be a hobby ?  :) 

Tom was alerted that issues involving his particle list and his work on wind/placard details .... came up today. Hopefully Tom will come here and comment. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:30:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Thanked: 132 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5771 on: March 04, 2021, 12:00:33 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I thought this was supposed to be a hobby ?  :) 

Tom was alerted that issues involving his particle list and his work on wind/placard details .... came up today. Hopefully Tom will come here and comment.

If Tom does check in, I hope that he will include links to the NOAA data and the National Weather Service and FAA weather data.  TK has already posted the NOAA link somewhere here not long ago and he may have posted the other link about 10 years ago on DZ.

ADDENDUM:  Flyjack has posted a link to Tom Kaye's post on the above radiosonde data.  You will have to go to #1751, April 12, 2019, on the Flight Path thread to view it and the links therein.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 12:41:19 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Thanked: 132 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5772 on: March 04, 2021, 12:05:53 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He would also likely have 25lbs of money tied to him. If he landed in the Columbia that night, his survival would be nearly impossible.

Chaucer, where is your "concrete evidence" to support your claim?
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5773 on: March 04, 2021, 12:27:26 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He would also likely have 25lbs of money tied to him. If he landed in the Columbia that night, his survival would be nearly impossible.

Chaucer, where is your "concrete evidence" to support your claim?
Well, I can tie a 25 lbs weight to your chest and throw you in the Columbia River in November at night and see how well you swim to shore. Message me and maybe we can meet up.
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5774 on: March 04, 2021, 03:15:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He would also likely have 25lbs of money tied to him. If he landed in the Columbia that night, his survival would be nearly impossible.

Chaucer, where is your "concrete evidence" to support your claim?
Well, I can tie a 25 lbs weight to your chest and throw you in the Columbia River in November at night and see how well you swim to shore. Message me and maybe we can meet up.

Of course once in the water it would not be as heavy, it would have some flotation to it would it not?  But there is no proof he landed in water. If he was lets say, within sight of the shorline, maybe less than 50 yards, could he not at least manuever the parachute just enough by pulling one of the chords to ensure he would not hit water?  Or not?