I agree.

Nobody (FBI Lab, Kaye, etal) found any evidence of trimming or alteration by human hands.

The frickin band remnants were still in place when found!

And the list goes on.

And Phil Scoles never said one word to this guy about "counterfeiting"! Scoles says he may have said "trimmed" or "looked trimmed" but Phil says he was not referring to anything done by human hands!

This is not a case of thinking outside the box. THERE IS NO BOX! This is a pure case of invention and distorting Phil Scoles' words and meaning in order to fudge together some wild claim for which there is no physical evidence at all from any source! Poster might as well claim the money was counterfeited and left at Tena Bar by Martians with super-technology not available on Earth!.     

Just how far does this forum go in allowing utter nonsense without ANY foundation to be posted under the guise of "theory"! This isn't thinking outside the box. This is wholesale falsification of known tested facts and people's words, then supported by the further statement that people who don't like or believe it are "mentally unfit - seriously"!.

“Nobody (FBI Lab, Kaye, etal) found any evidence of trimming or alteration by human hands. “
They weren’t accounting for decomposition after trimming, were they?
The money appeared *to me* to have been trimmed. Then I heard a second person say the same thing, a scientist named Phil Scoles, and I referenced his TV segment. If you think different, fine. But prove it wrong - don't just try to shout it down.

“The frickin band remnants were still in place when found!”
The frickin' band remnants were there because they were left there. Can't explain it? Tough. Something going unexplained in the D.B. Cooper case isn't a new concept, is it? However, if it was me and I was trying to cut apart a bundle of bills with a knife, I wouldn't take the frickin bands off. I'd shimmy them down a bit and cut, then reposition them to finish. Help keep the stack steady. But what do I know? I'm no "Georger."

“And Phil Scoles never said one word to this guy about "counterfeiting"! ”
You are correct, finally. Scoles never said anything about counterfeiting, as I have pointed out. Several times now. Are you ignoring me so you can keep claiming that, and put on a show for the other forum members? Is that why instead of addressing me you're calling me "this guy," because you're putting on a display?

“Scoles says he may have said "trimmed" or "looked trimmed" ”
Yes. He did. Which is what I had said in the article. You are now using a fact to argue against that very fact. I feel like I’m watching Fight Club. (“Okay, you are now firing a gun at your imaginary friend near 400 gallons of nitroglycerin!”)

“Phil says he was not referring to anything done by human hands!”
Phil Scoles’ full sentence, as spoken on the America Declassified segment: “It appears that somebody actually trimmed the edges off of those bills as a measure to maybe make it look like they were more degraded.” That sounds like human hands to me. People generally don’t trim paper with their toes, or their teeth. Beavers, maybe. Perhaps Phil realizes that Beavers are people, too, and sometimes chew the edges off of money. No, I’m guessing human hands. So which one of you is wrong here, Georger? And if anybody wants to see the clip, PM me and I’ll send it to you.  My offer to send you the clip, Georger – the offer I sent by "unsolicited" private message earlier - still stands. Do you want to clarify things before complaining about them or not?

"This is not a case of thinking outside the box. THERE IS NO BOX!"
If you can't see the box, then you're you're not just in it, you ARE the box.

"This is a pure case of invention and distorting Phil Scoles' words and meaning"
Again, he said they appeared to be trimmed. That's it. That's the sum total of his input I have referenced. This counterfeiting theory is MINE. Not Scoles'. And you bet your ass I'm trying to move it forward, but first it needs proper vetting, the kind that the cumulative knowledge of this forum could provide, if it wasn't for you attacking me angrily every time I invade your territory. Care to actually participate?

"in order to fudge together some wild claim for which there is no physical evidence at all from any source!"
Hmm...there just might be. Re-read that article. It's worth a look in the Secret Service's file cabinet.

"Poster might as well claim the money was counterfeited and left at Tena Bar by Martians with super-technology not available on Earth!"
Yet another weak attempt to put someone who doesn't agree with you in the crank bin. I don't even know what I don't agree with you over at this point, because you're just blowing hot air. Please do for me what Shutter did for Flyjack a few weeks back, and actually SHOW me why I'm not only wrong but a total piece of garbage for even wasting your time here today.  I wish you would seriously take a shot at this theory so I can see where the holes are. Or if not, I wish you would just log off.

"Just how far does this forum go in allowing utter nonsense without ANY foundation to be posted under the guise of "theory"! "
I used to ask 'just how far does this Forum go in allowing people to be attacked simply for posting a question or theory or photo?'  You should have been banned permanently from here a long time ago for your atrocious behavior. Absolutely indefensible. First I'm laughable because "Natural decomposition is a phony lie!"  Then I explain that I agree with it and why. But wait, I'm also working with Galen Cook!  Then you confirm that I am not.  You're 0 for 2 and yet you still don't need to apologize somehow (not that working with Galen Cook would be something to apologize for - I don't know him at all, so for all I know he's a great guy). Next I'm somehow claiming that Phil Scoles says this is counterfeiting, and you call him. He confirms that he didn't say that, which I had never claimed in the first place. And when that is clarified for you, the sin I've committed is to now twist Scoles' words to make up my own theory...which I said from the get-go. Twist words, no. New theory, yes. That's how theories work, dummy. 0 for 4. No apology.

I send you messages privately so the Forum is not cluttered with this garbage, and so I can clarify the things you seem to be confused about, but that is also the wrong thing to do, apparently, despite what Shutter wants.  It's amazing how every single thing I do and say is wrong, even when it's demonstrably right.  And yet nobody removes you from this Forum.

The only nonsense I hear anywhere on this board is from you.  That is a sincere statement.  Couple that with your unwarranted anger and that's why I asked if you were okay. I'm actually serious about that.  I have seen anger and confusion as a symptom of greater things, and I swear I have never seen anyone react the way you do to people here.

Shutter, if "this guy" makes one more unwarranted personal attack on me (that day he was Googling me, someone tried to log into my Facebook account - first and only time that's happened in a decade, and I have the IP address) I want to make a formal complaint.  I am through losing time typing responses like this to repair damage he is doing to my ideas and now my reputation. I have my own name out there on the article.

Cooper has to focus on getting out of the area if he survived...setting up such an elaborate scheme is hardly thinking out of the box IMHO.

The question of “marked bills” came up in these comments..Yes, the bills were marked. They don't have to have writing on them if the serial numbers are recorded..those are “marked bills”

The test that Tom Kaye has done is a “controlled test”  and has been on going longer than 33 months. More like 84 and still counting...no insects involved....different environment all together..”controlled”

Just because someone says it looks like they were trimmed doesn't mean they believe that's what has been done, or what he really believes. I think they look like they have been in a fire, or a fire was above it...that's just a thought I had..Ross Perot looks like dumbo, but doesn't mean he is Dumbo

Unsurelock, you have a valid point about being insulted, but to imply Georger of hacking is also “unwarranted” I google plenty of people..the old “two wrongs don't make it right” don't apply. I've known Georger for a long time now, and “hacking” is far from his experience library...please send me the IP address you have..last time I was hacked it showed exactly where the problem came from, map was included..I'm guessing with the accusations the IP is close to his area?

Georger has a lot more knowledge about the case, more than many here as well as outside of this forum. He has contacts to things you couldn't get near. He's been been researching the case far longer than anyone I know that is connected to this case. He does need to start understanding that some theories however wacky they get are part of the case while trying to find answers.

I don't buy into this theory, but you have every right to present it..

Here you go. Here's that clip of Phil Scoles and his words that I twisted. Or misinterpreted.



I'm so glad that he's been provided the right answers and reading material now. He must have had an electron microscope afterall.

Great video, Un-Sherlock. Thank you. I hadn't seen it before.

The money find at T-Bar seems to be taking a very strange and dramatic turn here. Increasingly, people are realizing that the money has been impacted by more than natural degradation, bacterial action, abrasion, etc.. The bills are more "weathered" than what others have been able to reproduce in controlled experiments in the wild.

I find it difficult to accept that "transport-induced abrasion" trimmed every single corner and 100% of the perimeter of every twenty but left the rubber bands intact. Yes, it's possible, I suppose, but it sure seems strange. This issue is bigger than whether Raised Bills were created or not. They may have been trimmed for counterfieting - or not - and if the latter then some other agenda or process is at work.

Remember, the packets of bills that Tom Kaye floated in the river "fanned-out" as they traveled downstream. So for transport-induced abrasion to do its job the bills have to be held together somehow. But then, whatever is holding them together, such as a money satchel, wouldn't that provide protection from the abrasion? Further, if the abrasion tore-up the bag and the edges and corners, how did it leave the rubber bands?

Further, we have the report from Galen that he has spoken to the two brothers who say that near T-Bar in January 1980 they found corners of twenty-dollar bills with the numeral "20" clearly intact, but no bodies of the bills. It is as if someone tore the corners off and planted them downstream, then planted the interiors of the bills a few hundreds yards upstream at the Fazio's stretch of T-Bar.

Do we have two plants?

But, we have the dilemma of the shard field at depth. Then we have to have the compression of the three bundles. Yikes.

I spoke with Galen at length last night about this, and discussed how we might proceed from here. He acknowledged that he had been working with Phil Scoles, in fact hired him to do field studies and research on the money find. Since proprietary interests and professional reputations are at stake, Galen and Scoles need to come to some agreement on how to proceed from here because this issue is gaining momentum. At the very least, Un-Sherlock is publishing his findings in magazines, and we are talking at length about it here. Plus, I certainly want to include some aspects of this in my 3rd Edition.

It is as if the train is leaving the station, and it would be good to have all the engineers and conductors on board.

Lastly, yes, Galen is pictured on camera at the end of the above video.

Yeah, I hadn't  been paying much attention to the bills, as on their own they don't conclusively prove whether DBC lived or died - he had the money strapped to him in a makeshift fashion and could have dropped some while still successfully completing the jump. Without a body or anything else to go on, he can't be presumed to have died. At the same time, proving the money was planted and ditched would suggest DB lived, but also wouldn't conclusively prove it. Campers, hikers, locals - most would report a body if they found one. But others might just snatch the money, with or without vanishing the body. They would know as well as DBC the money was "marked" (ie the serial numbers were recorded) and could just as easily have laundered, passed, or counterfeited it as DBC could. The fact that the money didn't turn up circulation is NOT that amazing - marked bills are caught fairly rarely, according to what I'm finding online. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

So I found the T-Bar element a somewhat frustrating yawner apart from how far it might go in identifying the dropzone. (If it fell off Cooper early in the jump, maybe not far.) 

Looking at the photos online of the bills - honestly, I would like to know more about the science of cornered objects under natural motion, as georger mentioned. But it is VERY hard not to look at those bills and wonder why all the outer edges are gone all the way around.

I'll take science over spec any day, but I would like to see the science on this, particularly if there are any other studies that have used US money (linen+cotton) in them.

I do think Un-Sherlock has more than satisfactorily shown that Scoles said what he quoted him as saying - more, in fact. If he's changed his mind since then, it would also be good to hear why. Am finally fascinated with this T-Bar debate, although again, I do not think any of these theories proves conclusively that DBC lived/died, or who he was. It can at most narrow the probabilities. Which, of course, is better than nothing.

... Campers, hikers, locals - most would report a body if they found one. But others might just snatch the money, with or without vanishing the body. They would know as well as DBC the money was "marked" (ie the serial numbers were recorded) and could just as easily have laundered, passed, or counterfeited it as DBC could...

I agree. If the money was handled in some fashion that resulted in corners and edges being removed, it didn't necessarily have to be DB Cooper. Could have been the hobos and homeless guys at the rail yards and bridges, as some here have suggested. That scenario would lend a bit more weight to the notion of raised bills. Imagine a raised-bill party at a hobo encampment!

Then they buried it downstream at T-Bar. Hmmm.

I like that better than the propeller theory.

The reason Galen gives makes zero sense...Cooper was living life well if he survived. nobody has a clue where he is, so why disturb a cold case with such a stunt?

I guess he also buried little pieces at different levels?

The reason Galen gives makes zero sense...Cooper was living life well if he survived. nobody has a clue where he is, so why disturb a cold case with such a stunt?

I guess he also buried little pieces at different levels?

I don't know if I'd have the stomach for 10,000 individual felonies (passing phony bills one at a time), so going by my theory, if I were Cooper I would not have cut all of the bills. That's why I considered he may have simply used some of them in a pinch, like getaway money. MacGuyver style, like cutting open the parachute. Adapt to the situation.