Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1202019 times)

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3600 on: January 07, 2018, 12:18:35 PM »
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This is a really interesting theory; it does account for the odd way the money had deteriorated and in a very logical way, based on the existence of that counterfeiting technique.

The parts of it that concern me are:
- The rain continued into the 25th of November, according to what I'm finding on the Weather Underground re precipitation for that date in the Portland area; someone may be able to provide more specific weather details for that date narrowed to the Tena Bar area? If it was continuously raining and DBC was dripping wet, it would have been very difficult to pull off a cut and paste job on the beach, not that that would be easy in good weather.
- DBC probably wouldn't have needed the ransom money to get out of the region once back in civilization; we know he had a $20 to pay for his own ticket, so it's likely he had other money on him, at least enough to get out of Dodge.

Still, that doesn't discount the possibility of "raising". It could just as easily be that DBC discarded some of the mutilated money later to make the FBI think he was dead. (I don't know why Colbert thinks that being the case would make Rackstraw a more likely suspect than anyone else, though. I don't believe for an instant Rackstraw did it, but that's a matter for a different thread.)

LOVE this out of the box thinking. My only thought on the bills themselves is that they were probably in the same spot for quite a while before Ingram found them, because otherwise the rubber bands that splintered apart instantly would likely have done so at some point while the bills were moving under whatever forces, natural or otherwise. (I believe it was georger who was talking about that aspect of the bills' condition - the crystallization phase.) But 9 years is a long time. If the plant theory is correct, he could have planted them any time in there.

Thanks, Lynn.

I don't think that Cooper would have to have pasted anything on-site, and he may not have even cut anything on-site.  He may have cut the bills while he was in the woods, or following the river back to Portland to pick up his car, or while he was on the plane for that matter.  He could glue paper together in a gas station bathroom, if he had to. Tena Bar may just be the first place he found where he could bury something with his hands - sand versus soil.  Who knows?  All I am proposing is that these bills may have been cut to make them "spendable," and the "cores" buried, that this possibility may have been overlooked for understandable reasons, and that this might explain several other aspects of the case.

I believe the federal charge for altering currency is up to 10 years, but I'm pretty sure he beat the statute of limitations on this one if he did it.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3601 on: January 07, 2018, 12:28:56 PM »
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As it turns out, I retain the copyrights to the original story as submitted. Here you go. (And Dice, I'll buy you lunch if you just spent 8 bucks to read this.)


The FBI May Never Find D.B. Cooper, but the Secret Service Might
by Brian Rafferty

   about his money, just like this one.

trimmed for bulk.

Cook's investigation into the money has been aided by Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland ... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Scoles says the bills were trimmed which means the bills found were part of a counterfeiting operation? Natural decomposition is a phony lie!

Now we know who Galen's Cook's 'sci team leader is'. Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland ...

Unsurelock is presenting for Galen Cook who cannot post here.

Does Phil Scoles have an electron microscope? How could Tom Kaye and the Sci Team and the FBI Lab and Georger have missed this! Does Galen Cook have an electron microscope and analyzed Cooper bills for the FBI also? Did DB Cooper have an electron microscope and analyzed Cooper bills for the FBI also?

Actually, Georger, I don't know Phil Scoles or Galen Cook. Phil would not even discuss the case with me when I contacted him, though he was nice and polite about it. I saw him on a Travel Channel show - I can send you the clip off of my DVR if you like. And while I agree that the bills look trimmed, I disagree with both Scoles' observation that the bills look like someone poked them with an ice pick, as well as Cook's conclusion later in the segment that they were planted.

I am not contesting that the bills had natural decay on them. They were out in nature for a long time. I have no reason to believe Kaye is wrong in his observations & conclusions. I think he & the others at CS are exactly right. They write, "Experimental burial of bundled dollar bills in sand for 33 months showed almost no decomposition." Since based on the rubber bands the money was probably under the sand for 99 months (11/71-02/80), we could expect to see (roughly) 3X the decomposition, unless some catalyst sped up the process. At that rate, we would still not see this level of extremely even and neat rot. Look at this photo:



You've undoubtedly seen this a thousand times, but look how even the bills are all the way around.

(I also don't know Geoffrey Gray, since you thought that aloud here on this Forum before, but he, too, was polite when I contacted him while shopping this story. Seemed like a nice guy.)

In a word, this is pure "nonsense". No discussion is possible.

What altered currency!? Is this another Galen Cook joke to embarrass this forum and the world? 

Shutter?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:39:52 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3602 on: January 07, 2018, 12:56:50 PM »
PHIL SCOLES, Terra Science, Inc.
Mr. Scoles is a Registered Professional Soil Scientist and principal of Terra Science, Inc. specializing in wetland delineation, permitting, and mitigation. He has extensive experience working with hydric soils and wetland hydrology.
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His vita:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

He will be contacted to verify what Unsurelock is posting about him here.

"Cook's investigation into the money has been aided by Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland State University. Cook and Scoles conducted various experiments within four different soil stratas that tested how the money would react to the soils, water, and ..."  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 01:12:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3603 on: January 07, 2018, 01:09:06 PM »
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In a word, this is pure "nonsense". No discussion is possible.

What altered currency!? Is this another Galen Cook joke to embarrass this forum and the world? 

Shutter?

Why would this Forum or the world be embarrassed? Are you okay?  It's alright, you don't have to be involved.  Nobody's trying to embarrass anybody. Check it out for yourself.  Here are a few examples:

Michigan, 1976


Kentucky, 1977

I love that this agent's name was James Johnson.

New Jersey, 1978


Each time a story is written about it, it's as though it's new information. There was not a lot of awareness on this in the 1970's.  But yes, this really was a thing.

I'd be happy to Skype with you if you need me to prove I'm not Galen Cook.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 01:10:23 PM by Unsurelock »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3604 on: January 07, 2018, 01:17:01 PM »
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In a word, this is pure "nonsense". No discussion is possible.

What altered currency!? Is this another Galen Cook joke to embarrass this forum and the world? 

Shutter?

Why would this Forum or the world be embarrassed? Are you okay?  It's alright, you don't have to be involved.  Nobody's trying to embarrass anybody. Check it out for yourself.  Here are a few examples:



I'd be happy to Skype with you if you need me to prove I'm not Galen Cook.

Post above trimmed of bulk -

Your posts name Galen Cook and Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland State University.

They are being contacted for authentication/clarification.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 01:19:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3605 on: January 07, 2018, 01:24:17 PM »
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Your posts name Galen Cook and Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland State University.

They are being contacted for authentication/clarification.

I named Scoles, but not Cook. Tell him I said "nice work."
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3606 on: January 07, 2018, 03:04:46 PM »
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Your posts name Galen Cook and Phil Scoles of Terra Science Inc. and a Lecturer at Wetland Training Institute and Portland State University.

They are being contacted for authentication/clarification.

I named Scoles, but not Cook. Tell him I said "nice work."

I just talked with Phil Scoles. He says he doesn't remember saying anything to you or anyone else about the Ingram Cooper bills being counterfeit money, or related to counterfeit money, or counterfeiting using Cooper bills either.

There is nothing I know of that would link the found Cooper money to a counterfeiting operation - period.

I have to assume the counterfeiting idea is your idea you are promoting, alone.

The subject is closed as far as I am concerned.   

And, Please stop sending me unsolicited emails about this, questioning my sanity or mental health!!

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:11:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3607 on: January 07, 2018, 03:22:58 PM »
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I just talked with Phil Scoles. He says he doesn't remember saying anything to you or anyone else about the Ingram Cooper bills being counterfeit money, or related to counterfeit money, or counterfeiting using Cooper bills either.

There is nothing I know of that would link the found Cooper money to a counterfeiting operation - period.

I have to assume the counterfeiting idea is your idea you are promoting, alone.

The subject is closed as far as I am concerned.   

And, Please stop sending me unsolicited emails about this, questioning my sanity or mental health!!

$20 Amazon gift card to anyone who can produce a quote from me or my article where I claim Phil Scoles says this is counterfeit.
Another $20 to anyone producing a quote where I said this was part of a counterfeiting operation. You choose the retailer. I hear Cracker Barrel is nice.

Meanwhile, this subject does not close because any one person declares it. Anyone who wants to pick apart my theory - that's why I posted it here.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3608 on: January 07, 2018, 03:43:48 PM »
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I just talked with Phil Scoles. He says he doesn't remember saying anything to you or anyone else about the Ingram Cooper bills being counterfeit money, or related to counterfeit money, or counterfeiting using Cooper bills either.

There is nothing I know of that would link the found Cooper money to a counterfeiting operation - period.

I have to assume the counterfeiting idea is your idea you are promoting, alone.

The subject is closed as far as I am concerned.   

And, Please stop sending me unsolicited emails about this, questioning my sanity or mental health!!

$20 Amazon gift card to anyone who can produce a quote from me or my article where I claim Phil Scoles says this is counterfeit.
Another $20 to anyone producing a quote where I said this was part of a counterfeiting operation. You choose the retailer. I hear Cracker Barrel is nice.

Meanwhile, this subject does not close because any one person declares it. Anyone who wants to pick apart my theory - that's why I posted it here.

Your original post names Phil Scoles! 

You say (quoted from your post above): "Even with the bills appearing to have been “trimmed” in the opinion of geologist Phil Scoles, who is involved in an independent investigation, burying the money hasn’t made any sense to most people so far."

You say "trimmed" supports "counterfeiting".   You use Scoles' statement "trimmed" as support for your counterfeiting dump theory, which you say is how/why Cooper money was placed at Tena Bar.

Then you turn around and question my 'mental' fitness in an email to me?  :rofl:





 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:47:36 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3609 on: January 07, 2018, 03:45:00 PM »
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I just talked with Phil Scoles. He says he doesn't remember saying anything to you or anyone else about the Ingram Cooper bills being counterfeit money, or related to counterfeit money, or counterfeiting using Cooper bills either.

There is nothing I know of that would link the found Cooper money to a counterfeiting operation - period.

I have to assume the counterfeiting idea is your idea you are promoting, alone.

The subject is closed as far as I am concerned.   

And, Please stop sending me unsolicited emails about this, questioning my sanity or mental health!!

$20 Amazon gift card to anyone who can produce a quote from me or my article where I claim Phil Scoles says this is counterfeit.
Another $20 to anyone producing a quote where I said this was part of a counterfeiting operation. You choose the retailer. I hear Cracker Barrel is nice.

Meanwhile, this subject does not close because any one person declares it. Anyone who wants to pick apart my theory - that's why I posted it here.

Kudos for thinking outside the box. Problem #1, the bills were still bundled in order, if one was to trim them they'd be separated.. too hard to trim bundled. Problem #2, this pic of Cooper TBAR Bills shows a portion of the "$20" circle on the back of all of them (4 in pic)... a trimmer would not leave those, they would trim well inside of the design.




« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:53:36 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3610 on: January 07, 2018, 03:55:35 PM »
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I just talked with Phil Scoles. He says he doesn't remember saying anything to you or anyone else about the Ingram Cooper bills being counterfeit money, or related to counterfeit money, or counterfeiting using Cooper bills either.

There is nothing I know of that would link the found Cooper money to a counterfeiting operation - period.

I have to assume the counterfeiting idea is your idea you are promoting, alone.

The subject is closed as far as I am concerned.   

And, Please stop sending me unsolicited emails about this, questioning my sanity or mental health!!

$20 Amazon gift card to anyone who can produce a quote from me or my article where I claim Phil Scoles says this is counterfeit.
Another $20 to anyone producing a quote where I said this was part of a counterfeiting operation. You choose the retailer. I hear Cracker Barrel is nice.

Meanwhile, this subject does not close because any one person declares it. Anyone who wants to pick apart my theory - that's why I posted it here.

Kudos for thinking outside the box. Problem #1, the bills were still bundled in order, if one was to trim them they's be separated.. too hard to trim bundled. Problem #2, this pic of Cooper TBAR Bills shows a portion of the "$20" circle on the back of all of them (4 in pic)... a trimmer would not leave those, they would trim well inside of the design.


Nobody (FBI Lab, Kaye, etal) found any evidence of trimming or alteration by human hands.

The frickin band remnants were still in place when found!

And the list goes on.

And Phil Scoles never said one word to this guy about "counterfeiting"! Scoles says he may have said "trimmed" or "looked trimmed" but Phil says he was not referring to anything done by human hands!

This is not a case of thinking outside the box. THERE IS NO BOX! This is a pure case of invention and distorting Phil Scoles' words and meaning in order to fudge together some wild claim for which there is no physical evidence at all from any source! Poster might as well claim the money was counterfeited and left at Tena Bar by Martians with super-technology not available on Earth!.     

Just how far does this forum go in allowing utter nonsense without ANY foundation to be posted under the guise of "theory"! This isn't thinking outside the box. This is wholesale falsification of known tested facts and people's words, then supported by the further statement that people who don't like or believe it are "mentally unfit - seriously"!.   
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:12:45 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3611 on: January 07, 2018, 04:11:39 PM »
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Kudos for thinking outside the box. Problem #1, the bills were still bundled in order, if one was to trim them they's be separated.. too hard to trim bundled. Problem #2, this pic of Cooper TBAR Bills shows a portion of the "$20" circle on the back of all of them (4 in pic)... a trimmer would not leave those, they would trim well inside of the design.

Thanks for the feedback, Flyjack. If I sound combative in my replies, it is not intended.  I like you and your out of the box thinking as well.  To address your first issue, I would normally agree with you about trimming the bills one by one. But there were 10,000 of them and a ticking clock, and he reportedly had a pocket knife and not scissors.  He had cut apart a parachute just for the cords, so I don't think he'd have had a problem MacGuyvering this, if he was familiar with raising notes.

As to your second point, I have never found one instance of a raised note being produced by joining a trimmed $10 or $20 with a trimmed $1, and I've been researching this for quite a while.  Universally, they paste the higher value over the top of the lower value, so only one side of the $20 would have been needed. Your observation - a keen one - only points out to me what I already suspect: that he trimmed for the face-side artwork as can be seen in every one of the example photos I posted above.

Based on your feedback, I will amend my language to say that no face-side corner artwork of the Cooper cash has ever been found or photographed. Excellent post. Thank you.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3612 on: January 07, 2018, 04:43:23 PM »
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Kudos for thinking outside the box. Problem #1, the bills were still bundled in order, if one was to trim them they's be separated.. too hard to trim bundled. Problem #2, this pic of Cooper TBAR Bills shows a portion of the "$20" circle on the back of all of them (4 in pic)... a trimmer would not leave those, they would trim well inside of the design.

Thanks for the feedback, Flyjack. If I sound combative in my replies, it is not intended.  I like you and your out of the box thinking as well.  To address your first issue, I would normally agree with you about trimming the bills one by one. But there were 10,000 of them and a ticking clock, and he reportedly had a pocket knife and not scissors.  He had cut apart a parachute just for the cords, so I don't think he'd have had a problem MacGuyvering this, if he was familiar with raising notes.

As to your second point, I have never found one instance of a raised note being produced by joining a trimmed $10 or $20 with a trimmed $1, and I've been researching this for quite a while.  Universally, they paste the higher value over the top of the lower value, so only one side of the $20 would have been needed. Your observation - a keen one - only points out to me what I already suspect: that he trimmed for the face-side artwork as can be seen in every one of the example photos I posted above.

Based on your feedback, I will amend my language to say that no face-side corner artwork of the Cooper cash has ever been found or photographed. Excellent post. Thank you.

Counterfeiting 10,000 bills with a pocket knife and tree sap for glue. Sounds artful. Then pasted rubber band pieces back over the bills for presentation, using tree sap again. The clock was ticking. The woods were lovely dark and deep but he had counterfeit currency deliveries to make. Between the woods and frozen lake the darkest evening of the year. (Dec 21st) And miles to go before he slept.   And miles to go before he slept. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:47:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3613 on: January 07, 2018, 05:15:47 PM »
Un-Sherlock, good work. I love the out-of-the-box thinking, even if there is no box! I guess, according to quantum theory, there is both a box and no box until it is observed.

Lots of what-ifs for the raised notes, but it is original. Cutting bundles with a knife, re-wrapping with rubber bands? Whew. But what the hell... Go Big or Go Home, I say.

BTW: It's nice to see Georger blow a gasket at someone else for a change. Thanks. I owe ya one...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 05:16:28 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3614 on: January 07, 2018, 05:24:52 PM »
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Un-Sherlock, good work. I love the out-of-the-box thinking, even if there is no box! I guess, according to quantum theory, there is both a box and no box until it is observed.

Lots of what-ifs for the raised notes, but it is original. Cutting bundles with a knife, re-wrapping with rubber bands? Whew. But what the hell... Go Big or Go Home, I say.

BTW: It's nice to see Georger blow a gasket at someone else for a change. Thanks. I owe ya one...

Any time someone attributes XYZ to someone who never said or meant XYZ then that's a problem. It isnt a case of blowing a gasket its a case of unnecessary work. Scoles seems like a straightforward guy - we had a nice general discussion. I let Galen know it was happening just to cover protocols. Maybe we can all talk further about Scole's research - the door is now open. I referred Scoles to Tom and Tom's site. Maybe this will all bear fruit. That would be nice for a change. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 05:25:54 PM by georger »
 
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