Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 505724 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4140 on: July 14, 2019, 03:13:40 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

There is another element operating in this hijacking that I see as crucial to how the Cooper hijacking went down: law enforcement was not in communication and failed to connect the dots in real time as things were happening, and they did not target their resources to where Cooper was at any given time ......... LE was operating blind!

The crew on the plane were not communicating with the pilots in the F106's, and that in turn was not being passed along to LE. Even if the F106 pilots had seen Cooper's chute open, that information was not being passed along to LE in real time! LE at all levels didn't have the faintest idea where Cooper was! He might as well have in China for all they knew. Reading 302's today 40+ years after the fact, makes that abundantly clear - 

From a tactical point of view, apprehending Cooper was a complete fiasco. A system for keeping track of him minute-to-minute wasn't even in place! Himmelsbach and his helicopter might as well have taken off for the Moon, and it appears that is just about exactly what they did do!  :o



 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4141 on: July 14, 2019, 03:15:22 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

There is another element operating in this hijacking that I see as crucial to how the Cooper hijacking went down: law enforcement was not in communication and failed to connect the dots in real time as things were happening, and they did not target their resources to where Cooper was at any given time ......... LE was operating blind!

The crew on the plane were not communicating with the pilots in the F106's, and that in turn was not being passed along to LE. Even if the F106 pilots had seen Cooper's chute open, that information was not being passed along to LE in real time! LE at all levels didn't have the faintest idea where Cooper was! He might as well have in China for all they knew. Reading 302's today 40+ years after the fact, makes that abundantly clear - 

From a tactical point of view, apprehending Cooper was a complete fiasco. A system for keeping track of him minute-to-minute wasn't even in place! Himmelsbach and his helicopter might as well have taken off for the Moon, and it appears that is just about exactly what they did do!  :o
LOL - I always say they couldn't find Cooper because they seemed to be searching with the map from Risk.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4142 on: July 14, 2019, 03:29:10 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

There is another element operating in this hijacking that I see as crucial to how the Cooper hijacking went down: law enforcement was not in communication and failed to connect the dots in real time as things were happening, and they did not target their resources to where Cooper was at any given time ......... LE was operating blind!

The crew on the plane were not communicating with the pilots in the F106's, and that in turn was not being passed along to LE. Even if the F106 pilots had seen Cooper's chute open, that information was not being passed along to LE in real time! LE at all levels didn't have the faintest idea where Cooper was! He might as well have in China for all they knew. Reading 302's today 40+ years after the fact, makes that abundantly clear - 

From a tactical point of view, apprehending Cooper was a complete fiasco. A system for keeping track of him minute-to-minute wasn't even in place! Himmelsbach and his helicopter might as well have taken off for the Moon, and it appears that is just about exactly what they did do!  :o
LOL - I always say they couldn't find Cooper because they seemed to be searching with the map from Risk.

The vital communications happening at the time were between the F106 pilots and .......... >? who?  Why was Solderlind and The Company even in this? What could they do from MINNEAPOLIS!  The Air Force people and their pilots were on top of this in real time .... why didn't somebody tell Minneapolis to STFU!

The Air Force was doing all of the real time heavy lifting in this hijacking with apparently little or no coordination between 305 and the Air Force for a minute-by-minute analysis of what was happening and where. Everything was dependent on that relationship if there was any hope of knowing what the hijacker was doing and where everything was happening, minute-to-minute.

It always comes down to communications, no matter what the nature of the emergency.   

The pilots on 305 seem to have been communicating with ALL THE WRONG PEOPLE if they had any interest in conveying timely news to LE! There was nothing MINNEAPOLIS could do about their plight in the State of Washington! Why is NWA even trying to replace and circumvent the Air Force and who has people right there! ? Sailshaw identified and commented about this basic conflict; the system that beat the system.         
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:02:02 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4143 on: July 14, 2019, 04:02:13 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

Remember: "Miss, all I have to do is touch these two wires ..." ..."no funny stuff or I'll do the job". He presented a contraption that looked like a bomb.

Cooper could have said, 'ok I give up. Land this plane and I'll cooperate'. It's over.'  But he didn't.

He relied on psychology, a parachute, whatever skills he had with a parachute, the darkness and weather, enough time in the air to confuse everyone, and it appears he may have ejected close to where it all began at Portland. He was so far ahead with so many unknowns operating, over a large enough geographical area, a hand full of law enforcement couldn't catch up to him easily. Then money turns up on a sand bar of all places, ten years later, and the only thing to connect these events is the flow of water. And whatever evidence they had also conveniently disappears or is so conflicted it is almost meaningless!

Who is bluffing whom?   
This may be fanciful, but it was like fate conspired to let him remain a metaphor. A desperate, faithless, resentful Everyman - a middle-aged loner, not a young hothead - who devised the perfect plan designed to get him what he wanted with the least amount of collateral damage. Tosses his necktie on the way out the door - it was only ever a clip-on, anyway; he was never going to let it choke him; his persona was only ever for show. Vanishes, with every evidentiary detail thereafter, including the find at Tina Bar, producing more questions than answers. The most key pieces of evidence going missing some time before the technology that could have nailed him. *poof!* The magic trick is complete.  8) Been watching Better Call Saul and Barry, both shows about anti-heroes, how they got there, and how life is lived beyond the time of possible redemption. Shows that make the audience question itself in its ability to empathize with questionable people. We all know the long-term psychological effects Cooper's crime had on some, yet no matter what background we imagine for him, we have to wonder how he got there and how he justified it in his mind. The desire to escape is powerful in our culture, and the ability to do so is rare. That's why watching/reading re-creations of Cooper's jump are enthralling - much like the opening scenes in Casablanca, when the young couple looks wistfully up and the woman goes, "Perhaps tomorrow we'll be on that plane." We don't know what Cooper was REALLY escaping. We can only look up and imagine.

True.  The whole hijacking was so ill planned that Cooper could have dreamed it up within the previous day or two.  There may have been some event in his life within the previous week or so that set him on that path.

A clip-on tie will not choke you unless you wrap it around your neck in the form of a noose.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4144 on: July 14, 2019, 04:07:09 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

Remember: "Miss, all I have to do is touch these two wires ..." ..."no funny stuff or I'll do the job". He presented a contraption that looked like a bomb.

Cooper could have said, 'ok I give up. Land this plane and I'll cooperate'. It's over.'  But he didn't.

He relied on psychology, a parachute, whatever skills he had with a parachute, the darkness and weather, enough time in the air to confuse everyone, and it appears he may have ejected close to where it all began at Portland. He was so far ahead with so many unknowns operating, over a large enough geographical area, a hand full of law enforcement couldn't catch up to him easily. Then money turns up on a sand bar of all places, ten years later, and the only thing to connect these events is the flow of water. And whatever evidence they had also conveniently disappears or is so conflicted it is almost meaningless!

Who is bluffing whom?   
This may be fanciful, but it was like fate conspired to let him remain a metaphor. A desperate, faithless, resentful Everyman - a middle-aged loner, not a young hothead - who devised the perfect plan designed to get him what he wanted with the least amount of collateral damage. Tosses his necktie on the way out the door - it was only ever a clip-on, anyway; he was never going to let it choke him; his persona was only ever for show. Vanishes, with every evidentiary detail thereafter, including the find at Tina Bar, producing more questions than answers. The most key pieces of evidence going missing some time before the technology that could have nailed him. *poof!* The magic trick is complete.  8) Been watching Better Call Saul and Barry, both shows about anti-heroes, how they got there, and how life is lived beyond the time of possible redemption. Shows that make the audience question itself in its ability to empathize with questionable people. We all know the long-term psychological effects Cooper's crime had on some, yet no matter what background we imagine for him, we have to wonder how he got there and how he justified it in his mind. The desire to escape is powerful in our culture, and the ability to do so is rare. That's why watching/reading re-creations of Cooper's jump are enthralling - much like the opening scenes in Casablanca, when the young couple looks wistfully up and the woman goes, "Perhaps tomorrow we'll be on that plane." We don't know what Cooper was REALLY escaping. We can only look up and imagine.

True.  The whole hijacking was so ill planned that Cooper could have dreamed it up within the previous day or two.  There may have been some event in his life within the previous week or so that set him on that path.

A clip-on tie will not choke you unless you wrap it around your neck in the form of a noose.

I just dont understand these NWA pilots always wanting to 'talk to the company' during crucial periods. What can the company do in the State of Minnesota?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4145 on: July 14, 2019, 04:13:08 PM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

Remember: "Miss, all I have to do is touch these two wires ..." ..."no funny stuff or I'll do the job". He presented a contraption that looked like a bomb.

Cooper could have said, 'ok I give up. Land this plane and I'll cooperate'. It's over.'  But he didn't.

He relied on psychology, a parachute, whatever skills he had with a parachute, the darkness and weather, enough time in the air to confuse everyone, and it appears he may have ejected close to where it all began at Portland. He was so far ahead with so many unknowns operating, over a large enough geographical area, a hand full of law enforcement couldn't catch up to him easily. Then money turns up on a sand bar of all places, ten years later, and the only thing to connect these events is the flow of water. And whatever evidence they had also conveniently disappears or is so conflicted it is almost meaningless!

Who is bluffing whom?   
This may be fanciful, but it was like fate conspired to let him remain a metaphor. A desperate, faithless, resentful Everyman - a middle-aged loner, not a young hothead - who devised the perfect plan designed to get him what he wanted with the least amount of collateral damage. Tosses his necktie on the way out the door - it was only ever a clip-on, anyway; he was never going to let it choke him; his persona was only ever for show. Vanishes, with every evidentiary detail thereafter, including the find at Tina Bar, producing more questions than answers. The most key pieces of evidence going missing some time before the technology that could have nailed him. *poof!* The magic trick is complete.  8) Been watching Better Call Saul and Barry, both shows about anti-heroes, how they got there, and how life is lived beyond the time of possible redemption. Shows that make the audience question itself in its ability to empathize with questionable people. We all know the long-term psychological effects Cooper's crime had on some, yet no matter what background we imagine for him, we have to wonder how he got there and how he justified it in his mind. The desire to escape is powerful in our culture, and the ability to do so is rare. That's why watching/reading re-creations of Cooper's jump are enthralling - much like the opening scenes in Casablanca, when the young couple looks wistfully up and the woman goes, "Perhaps tomorrow we'll be on that plane." We don't know what Cooper was REALLY escaping. We can only look up and imagine.

True.  The whole hijacking was so ill planned that Cooper could have dreamed it up within the previous day or two.  There may have been some event in his life within the previous week or so that set him on that path.

A clip-on tie will not choke you unless you wrap it around your neck in the form of a noose.

I just dont understand these NWA pilots always wanting to 'talk to the company' during crucial periods. What can the company do in the State of Minnesota?

Good question.  The answer is "nothing".  It does look like NWA was trying to keep the FBI out of the matter.
 

Offline DovidFraiman

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4146 on: July 15, 2019, 01:18:54 PM »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4147 on: July 15, 2019, 06:10:16 PM »
NWO, was on the hook for $200,000....good reason for them to get involved. there money, airline and pilots, crew, passengers. that was the 70's. wouldn't happen like that today..
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4148 on: July 16, 2019, 12:14:29 AM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

Remember: "Miss, all I have to do is touch these two wires ..." ..."no funny stuff or I'll do the job". He presented a contraption that looked like a bomb.

Cooper could have said, 'ok I give up. Land this plane and I'll cooperate'. It's over.'  But he didn't.

He relied on psychology, a parachute, whatever skills he had with a parachute, the darkness and weather, enough time in the air to confuse everyone, and it appears he may have ejected close to where it all began at Portland. He was so far ahead with so many unknowns operating, over a large enough geographical area, a hand full of law enforcement couldn't catch up to him easily. Then money turns up on a sand bar of all places, ten years later, and the only thing to connect these events is the flow of water. And whatever evidence they had also conveniently disappears or is so conflicted it is almost meaningless!

Who is bluffing whom?   
This may be fanciful, but it was like fate conspired to let him remain a metaphor. A desperate, faithless, resentful Everyman - a middle-aged loner, not a young hothead - who devised the perfect plan designed to get him what he wanted with the least amount of collateral damage. Tosses his necktie on the way out the door - it was only ever a clip-on, anyway; he was never going to let it choke him; his persona was only ever for show. Vanishes, with every evidentiary detail thereafter, including the find at Tina Bar, producing more questions than answers. The most key pieces of evidence going missing some time before the technology that could have nailed him. *poof!* The magic trick is complete.  8) Been watching Better Call Saul and Barry, both shows about anti-heroes, how they got there, and how life is lived beyond the time of possible redemption. Shows that make the audience question itself in its ability to empathize with questionable people. We all know the long-term psychological effects Cooper's crime had on some, yet no matter what background we imagine for him, we have to wonder how he got there and how he justified it in his mind. The desire to escape is powerful in our culture, and the ability to do so is rare. That's why watching/reading re-creations of Cooper's jump are enthralling - much like the opening scenes in Casablanca, when the young couple looks wistfully up and the woman goes, "Perhaps tomorrow we'll be on that plane." We don't know what Cooper was REALLY escaping. We can only look up and imagine.

True.  The whole hijacking was so ill planned that Cooper could have dreamed it up within the previous day or two.  There may have been some event in his life within the previous week or so that set him on that path.

A clip-on tie will not choke you unless you wrap it around your neck in the form of a noose.
lol Sorry, was still speaking metaphorically - we don't technically know if Cooper even wore a tie in his regular life, but we do know something was "choking" him - a skyjacking is a desperate move, no matter what motivation you imagine. He may have been psychologically or financially desperate, but contented people don't typically hijack planes.  We don't know why he wanted/needed the money, be it simple rat race angst or running guns to Bangladesh. But he's become a kind of symbol of the middle-aged nobody who blended so well he could pull off the perfect crime with little to no interference and variations in how witnesses recalled him. Don Draper type? James Bond type? Angry veteran? Or just some poor schlub who sold Funk and Wagnalls door-to-door?

Practically, he could have picked up the entire ensemble at the Goodwill. Apparently it wasn't the best matched outfit, as Mitchell recalled.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4149 on: July 16, 2019, 12:29:08 AM »
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This entire case was just one big bluff, Cooper didn't need a watch since there was nothing he could do if they didn't keep his schedule...

Remember: "Miss, all I have to do is touch these two wires ..." ..."no funny stuff or I'll do the job". He presented a contraption that looked like a bomb.

Cooper could have said, 'ok I give up. Land this plane and I'll cooperate'. It's over.'  But he didn't.

He relied on psychology, a parachute, whatever skills he had with a parachute, the darkness and weather, enough time in the air to confuse everyone, and it appears he may have ejected close to where it all began at Portland. He was so far ahead with so many unknowns operating, over a large enough geographical area, a hand full of law enforcement couldn't catch up to him easily. Then money turns up on a sand bar of all places, ten years later, and the only thing to connect these events is the flow of water. And whatever evidence they had also conveniently disappears or is so conflicted it is almost meaningless!

Who is bluffing whom?   
This may be fanciful, but it was like fate conspired to let him remain a metaphor. A desperate, faithless, resentful Everyman - a middle-aged loner, not a young hothead - who devised the perfect plan designed to get him what he wanted with the least amount of collateral damage. Tosses his necktie on the way out the door - it was only ever a clip-on, anyway; he was never going to let it choke him; his persona was only ever for show. Vanishes, with every evidentiary detail thereafter, including the find at Tina Bar, producing more questions than answers. The most key pieces of evidence going missing some time before the technology that could have nailed him. *poof!* The magic trick is complete.  8) Been watching Better Call Saul and Barry, both shows about anti-heroes, how they got there, and how life is lived beyond the time of possible redemption. Shows that make the audience question itself in its ability to empathize with questionable people. We all know the long-term psychological effects Cooper's crime had on some, yet no matter what background we imagine for him, we have to wonder how he got there and how he justified it in his mind. The desire to escape is powerful in our culture, and the ability to do so is rare. That's why watching/reading re-creations of Cooper's jump are enthralling - much like the opening scenes in Casablanca, when the young couple looks wistfully up and the woman goes, "Perhaps tomorrow we'll be on that plane." We don't know what Cooper was REALLY escaping. We can only look up and imagine.

True.  The whole hijacking was so ill planned that Cooper could have dreamed it up within the previous day or two.  There may have been some event in his life within the previous week or so that set him on that path.

A clip-on tie will not choke you unless you wrap it around your neck in the form of a noose.
lol Sorry, was still speaking metaphorically - we don't technically know if Cooper even wore a tie in his regular life, but we do know something was "choking" him - a skyjacking is a desperate move, no matter what motivation you imagine. He may have been psychologically or financially desperate, but contented people don't typically hijack planes.  We don't know why he wanted/needed the money, be it simple rat race angst or running guns to Bangladesh. But he's become a kind of symbol of the middle-aged nobody who blended so well he could pull off the perfect crime with little to no interference and variations in how witnesses recalled him. Don Draper type? James Bond type? Angry veteran? Or just some poor schlub who sold Funk and Wagnalls door-to-door?

Practically, he could have picked up the entire ensemble at the Goodwill. Apparently it wasn't the best matched outfit, as Mitchell recalled.

True again.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4150 on: July 16, 2019, 01:02:27 AM »
As per last couple of posts... I would have to question the odds of picking up that tie at the Goodwill or thrift store. I personally believe that to be a real long shot. Just my opinion.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4151 on: July 16, 2019, 01:29:29 AM »
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As per last couple of posts... I would have to question the odds of picking up that tie at the Goodwill or thrift store. I personally believe that to be a real long shot. Just my opinion.

In the 1971 time frame, clip-on ties could be purchased in drug stores for about $2.00.  They were the absolute bottom of the line for neck ties.  I don't recall having seen one in a regular clothing store or department store.
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4152 on: July 16, 2019, 02:03:01 AM »
The cheepness plus how worn it looks leads me to believe most people would have just threw it out when they were done with it. I doubt any thrift store would pay for it. Most thrift stores and Goodwill stores and such are required to wash any clothing they take in before reselling. At least that's the case nowadays. It may have been different back then. If it was washed wouldn't it have washed off a lot of the particles that were found on it?
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4153 on: July 16, 2019, 02:07:05 AM »
Sorry Shutter   I guess this discussion probably should be in the evidence thread.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4154 on: July 16, 2019, 11:56:23 AM »
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NWO, was on the hook for $200,000....good reason for them to get involved. there money, airline and pilots, crew, passengers. that was the 70's. wouldn't happen like that today..

Interesting answer! And some would say: "and it was THEIR hijacking ... let them solve it!"

But they had none of the resources to solve 'their problem' and they may have provided none of the answers to solve it!