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[dice]

Could some of Shutter's assistants be playing admin in his absence? Just askin'...

Yep... I caught a change by someone in one of my posts a few days ago..... someone changed some of my words.

And talk about calling the kettle black, georgie.....for to chastise Bruce about inappropriateness; well many times someone comes here trying to add something you knock them with sarcastic humor... if anything, that is whats inappropriate, as it mocks the contributor and can keep others from taking a real discussion on it...  I do appreciate your cutting humor... but there are proper times to do so, and oftentimes not.  That is just as much diversionary as anything else, after all, we are all trying to solve, correct?  Or is it about something else...

[georger]

Could some of Shutter's assistants be playing admin in his absence? Just askin'...

Yep... I caught a change by someone in one of my posts a few days ago..... someone changed some of my words.

And talk about calling the kettle black, georgie.....for to chastise Bruce about inappropriateness; well many times someone comes here trying to add something you knock them with sarcastic humor... if anything, that is whats inappropriate, as it mocks the contributor and can keep others from taking a real discussion on it...  I do appreciate your cutting humor... but there are proper times to do so, and oftentimes not.  That is just as much diversionary as anything else, after all, we are all trying to solve, correct?  Or is it about something else...

It is something else - with deep roots - involves others including some guy name Cook. Smith is a long known pipeline for trouble and disruption.

Nobody here or anywhere else has "ALL" of the information about the CB Cooper case. For Smith and Cook to pretend otherwise is subterfuge of the highest order. I'm sorry you see Smith (and Cook) as  "victims". Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact this forum was founded to get away from ... Smith, Blevins, and Weber and a few others who had come to dominate the whole Cooper discussion. (at Dropzone). The whole last year at DZ was three people posting. Smith, Blevins, and Weber. Everyone else was existing with eyes glazed looking for an out.

Moreover sir, I dont feel any need to prove anything to you, just to be clear about this. 
     

[dice]

I'm sorry you see Smith (and Cook) as  "victims"

Not at all.....  I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. And I'd say the same thing in reverse to him, and would expect the same said to me.

[georger]

Moving onto other topics.....(Slightly off topic).

Police in Florida solved a 27 year old murder case of a woman shot to death by a clown.

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Interesting thing about this case (and another big case here locally, the Green River Killer) is police had a pretty good idea who did it very early in the process.  They couldn't make an arrest because if they prosecuted and lost, the suspect would be free forever.  So, they waited until they could prove it -- and then charged.

Seems pretty common.  Typing it back to the DB Cooper case, the FBI doesn't seem to know how did it.   Other than LD Cooper, have they had anyone they liked as a suspect?

When you say "they" referring to the whole FBI? I think that's a misrepresentation. I dont know that the whole FBI has had 'people they liked'. The actual mechanics and history over the years is a number of individual agents who liked or did not like, specific people.

You may not know this but Cook and Smith have lobbied (anyone they could get to listen to them over the years) that there was actual competition, very hard feelings, and even subterfuge between some FBI offices, in the Cooper case. Portland vs Seattle, for example. Portland vs Seattle vs Reno. According to Cook and Smith this competition between offices was so deep and disruptive that it lost the world finding DB Cooper! This disruption according to these 'scholars' even included intentional dirty tricks conducted by some agents on other agents, or on the Cooper case itself. This is pretty profound stuff - strong claims by Smith and Cook. Read Smith's book! His title is no accident. Maybe the cigarette butts were lost on purpose to scuttle one office conducting its investigation ? Smith and Cook's theory is a Conspiracy theory, but it is more than that - it is an actual contention! It's based on hundreds of interviews Smith and Cook have done over the years. The whole thing is way beyond my pay grade. The problem with such theories is it is very difficult to build a body of reliable facts about a case when several people keep insisting only they have the "true facts", one of which is that the FBI is totally corrupt and can't be trusted, in the whole DB Cooper case, .... that only Cook and Smith have the true significant facts of the case! I guess unwittingly I am part of the conspiracy because of my 'mindset', as Smith puts it?     

At the same time Cook has conducted a working relationship with SA Curtis Eng, which I find remarkable. I guess you can condemn the FBI one day and be their friend on the same afternoon?  In Smith's case a number of sources wont talk to him anymore and he complains bitterly about it, as we all know. Colbert has woven a path through all of this which is also remarkable. I guess there is working competition within all disciplines and some of it gets pretty nasty at times ... but did it lose the FBI or some other govt agency finding DB Cooper? I dont know the answer to that. But, it is a strong claim by anyone making such a claim!   

Tom Kaye, however, has forged ahead without taking any political stand - so far as I know. Tom and Carol and Alan have focused on forensic work and stuck to this mandate - and are to be congratulated for that! 

[georger]

I'm sorry you see Smith (and Cook) as  "victims"

Not at all.....  I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. And I'd say the same thing in reverse to him, and would expect the same said to me.

Others can judge for themselves. You say its hypocrisy. Others know when Smith is employing his psychological crap to target someone. None of which has anything to do with discussing the DB Cooper case? Smith is sometimes acting for Cook who is banned here.

[georger]

Could some of Shutter's assistants be playing admin in his absence? Just askin'...

Yep... I caught a change by someone in one of my posts a few days ago..... someone changed some of my words.

And talk about calling the kettle black, georgie.....for to chastise Bruce about inappropriateness; well many times someone comes here trying to add something you knock them with sarcastic humor... if anything, that is whats inappropriate, as it mocks the contributor and can keep others from taking a real discussion on it...  I do appreciate your cutting humor... but there are proper times to do so, and oftentimes not.  That is just as much diversionary as anything else, after all, we are all trying to solve, correct?  Or is it about something else...

Yes. I removed my name from Smith's snide post. I substituted another name. It was the third time Smith had targeted me. (suggesting there is something wrong with my "MIND"?) That is targeting and a personal attack. 

I could have removed his whole damned post! 

This is supposed to be a DB Cooper Discussion group - not a smith/Dice psycho evaluation of other members forum!

Could we PLEASE get back on track and stop this disruption. It started with Smith posting an attack by Cook here. It is now days old. Time to stop. 

Smith and Cook have achieved their goal - disruption. Time to let it go and move on.

 

[Robert99]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

[Shutter]

Listen up guys..please try and get along. The bickering needs to stop ASAP.

One thing I value on this forum is safety. If I hear anymore bullshit about anyone changing someone's post other than me, that will be the end of that person. If any of you have a grievance you need to contact ME directly. The best way at the moment is my email address. I take a lot of pride in protecting people, always have, and always will. I will not tolerate breaching someone's space/post etc.

Please try and respect each others opinions and respectfully disagree when needed. This forum has been active since 2014 and I appreciate each and every one of you guys and thank you for joining. Try to stay on topic, and please try to post in the thread required for that certain post. I drift off as well, we are all human, so we need to rely on each other to make things work.

I need you guys to work as a team while I'm away. Things are boiling on my end..I lost a friend, went through a storm, work is over loading to the max..Insurance companies are hiring us for drone work inspecting roof top damage. My day now starts at 4:30 and ends (in the field) at around 6-7 PM. I get a couple hours a nite of some peace which I value greatly..I have to take sleep medication so I can get to sleep. The loss of my friend has sent me over the deep end lately. I've been nasty to just about everyone who gives any hint of a problem..I'm typically not like this but have calmed down a bit since the funeral. Either I get a grip on this, or crash and burn...I've told one contractor I work for that I can no longer be of help. He fully understood, so this has given me some fresh air to breath. I hired extra help just to turn work over too, nothing in it for me. Just washed my hands with it..

I can not express this enough about valuing each member on this forum. I want everyone to feel safe here. I will not hesitate in taking action. I built this forum from the ground up. It took me several computers running at the same time to get it right..please don't disrespect what I have built. I put a lot of effort into this not even knowing if it would take off. Thanks to all of you it did. I could of just went with a server that has turn key forum's, but didn't like certain things they had, or did. I put the forum on the server myself..big difference.

Life is too short people..lets get back to having fun, exploring this crazy mystery nobody seems to be able to solve. We can't solve shit when everyone is bitching...let me get my shit together so I can also join back into this crazy thing called DB Cooper..

P.S. I would also like to thank all of the members, and non-members who contacted me in regards to the loss of my friend. I post things like that on our other board as therapy. It helps me a lot..takes some pain away....

Shutter

[andrade1812]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

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Sources included in the spreadsheet; I haven't had a chance to look at the new updates.

[Robert99]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sources included in the spreadsheet; I haven't had a chance to look at the new updates.

No problem.  In going through your book again, I saw a remark that your father had made some comments on the flight path.  However, I have not been able to locate those comments and I don't remember seeing them previously.  Can you point them out to me?  I am particularly interested in his comments on the airliner's track as presented on the "FBI map" as well as on the Tom Colbert chart that was included in a post by 377 earlier this evening.

[andrade1812]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sources included in the spreadsheet; I haven't had a chance to look at the new updates.

No problem.  In going through your book again, I saw a remark that your father had made some comments on the flight path.  However, I have not been able to locate those comments and I don't remember seeing them previously.  Can you point them out to me?  I am particularly interested in his comments on the airliner's track as presented on the "FBI map" as well as on the Tom Colbert chart that was included in a post by 377 earlier this evening.

My father said there was something "seriously wrong" with the FBI map. He also suggested your theory about bypassing V23 to the Canby intersection would be a "highly unusual" decision for the pilots to make once they were cleared on a specific airway. However, he has consistently refused to take sides.

We spent considerable time on the flight path and couldn't come to any firm conclusions. (Basically, he trusts that the Air Force gave the FBI the right flight path at the time, he also believes the flight crew would not have known their position accurately). He was looking forward to participating in a flight simulation but that never materialized.

I thought we spent more time on the flight path in the book, but now that I page through it, we didn't. We have a stack of edits and additions to make to a second edition if I ever get around to it.

[georger]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sources included in the spreadsheet; I haven't had a chance to look at the new updates.

No problem.  In going through your book again, I saw a remark that your father had made some comments on the flight path.  However, I have not been able to locate those comments and I don't remember seeing them previously.  Can you point them out to me?  I am particularly interested in his comments on the airliner's track as presented on the "FBI map" as well as on the Tom Colbert chart that was included in a post by 377 earlier this evening.

My father said there was something "seriously wrong" with the FBI map. He also suggested your theory about bypassing V23 to the Canby intersection would be a "highly unusual" decision for the pilots to make once they were cleared on a specific airway. However, he has consistently refused to take sides.

We spent considerable time on the flight path and couldn't come to any firm conclusions. (Basically, he trusts that the Air Force gave the FBI the right flight path at the time, he also believes the flight crew would not have known their position accurately). He was looking forward to participating in a flight simulation but that never materialized.

I thought we spent more time on the flight path in the book, but now that I page through it, we didn't. We have a stack of edits and additions to make to a second edition if I ever get around to it.

We spent considerable time on the flight path and couldn't come to any firm conclusions. (Basically, he trusts that the Air Force gave the FBI the right flight path at the time, he also believes the flight crew would not have known their position accurately). He was looking forward to participating in a flight simulation but that never materialized.

Could not have known, under the circumstances that applied!

[Robert99]

In all probability, Cooper was dead within one minute of his separation from the airliner. 

I could not disagree more with this statement....   somehow our military could do the same maneuever time and time again with a almost trivial fail rate, and yet somehow our Cooper got super unlucky.  Andrade ran the numbers and you may want to look at them.

I will reply to this post in the next several days.  I will take another look at Andrade's numbers and comment at length on the matter.  Just don't jump to the conclusion that I will be changing my mind.  So sit tight for a few days.

My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sources included in the spreadsheet; I haven't had a chance to look at the new updates.

No problem.  In going through your book again, I saw a remark that your father had made some comments on the flight path.  However, I have not been able to locate those comments and I don't remember seeing them previously.  Can you point them out to me?  I am particularly interested in his comments on the airliner's track as presented on the "FBI map" as well as on the Tom Colbert chart that was included in a post by 377 earlier this evening.

My father said there was something "seriously wrong" with the FBI map. He also suggested your theory about bypassing V23 to the Canby intersection would be a "highly unusual" decision for the pilots to make once they were cleared on a specific airway. However, he has consistently refused to take sides.

We spent considerable time on the flight path and couldn't come to any firm conclusions. (Basically, he trusts that the Air Force gave the FBI the right flight path at the time, he also believes the flight crew would not have known their position accurately). He was looking forward to participating in a flight simulation but that never materialized.

I thought we spent more time on the flight path in the book, but now that I page through it, we didn't. We have a stack of edits and additions to make to a second edition if I ever get around to it.

On your first paragraph above, the airliner was not actually assigned a specific route as is the normal case for IFR operations today as well as in 1971.  The flight crew was told prior to take-off that they were free to do anything that they needed to do and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  It was more or less assumed that they would generally follow V-23 south and ATC told the airliner that they would keep other aircraft more than 4000 feet from them vertically.  Since the airliner was at 10,000 feet, this basically meant that there would not be other aircraft below them and that any aircraft above them would be at 14,000 feet or higher.

As you have probably noticed, there are 19 redactions (if I remember correctly) in the ATC radio transcript for the flight from SEATAC to the Fort Jones VORTAC in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center.  These redactions removed ever single bit of information that would help pinpoint the location of the airliner while in the Seattle ATC area.  There are no redactions whatsoever in the radio transcripts for SEATAC tower, Oakland Center, and Reno tower.

There are a number of reasons, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, for believing that the airliner did fly from the Malay Intersection direct to the Canby Intersection.  During this off-airway (but still in controlled airspace) flight, the airliner would be flying vectors provided by the appropriate Seattle ATC sector controller.  At the same time, the controller was busy trying to direct several different aircraft to intercept and trail the airliner, so he was quite busy.

[georger]

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Dont forget to sign up for your Racehorse>  Click here to continue shopping.

Only the BEST Cooperites shop at Gray's FBI Files Cooper website. Good luck ... and a partridge in a Cooper tree [Trademark Registered]. Sorry, no Sweat Lodge or Ramtha Cooper Ladder to Heaven yet, but we're workin on it!

Stay True!

[andrade1812]

On your first paragraph above, the airliner was not actually assigned a specific route as is the normal case for IFR operations today as well as in 1971.  The flight crew was told prior to take-off that they were free to do anything that they needed to do and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  It was more or less assumed that they would generally follow V-23 south and ATC told the airliner that they would keep other aircraft more than 4000 feet from them vertically.  Since the airliner was at 10,000 feet, this basically meant that there would not be other aircraft below them and that any aircraft above them would be at 14,000 feet or higher.

As you have probably noticed, there are 19 redactions (if I remember correctly) in the ATC radio transcript for the flight from SEATAC to the Fort Jones VORTAC in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center.  These redactions removed ever single bit of information that would help pinpoint the location of the airliner while in the Seattle ATC area.  There are no redactions whatsoever in the radio transcripts for SEATAC tower, Oakland Center, and Reno tower.

There are a number of reasons, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, for believing that the airliner did fly from the Malay Intersection direct to the Canby Intersection.  During this off-airway (but still in controlled airspace) flight, the airliner would be flying vectors provided by the appropriate Seattle ATC sector controller.  At the same time, the controller was busy trying to direct several different aircraft to intercept and trail the airliner, so he was quite busy.

"The plane was where the radar said it was." ---MGAsr

We read through most of your writings on the flight path, including your thread (last summer?) with your estimates and calculations. He has consistently refused to weigh in on the topic, and believes only the radar data can solve the mystery.