Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 757151 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1980 on: April 27, 2019, 12:27:43 AM »
I suspected the card Hicks had on the episode of In Search Of was the real placard. when you watch the credits. it thanks Les Nelson, Cowlitz county sheriff. the placard was found in Cowlitz. they have the card and not the FBI. it says cowlitz county evidence on the photo with the agent holding the card.

What would the characteristics be with a large tear in it?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1981 on: April 27, 2019, 01:01:50 AM »
What would be the estimated terminal of the placard?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1982 on: April 27, 2019, 01:39:52 AM »
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What would be the estimated terminal of the placard?

ok. That placard has no terminal v until it sheds its forward momentum and clears the 727 vortex wake behind the plane. That placard does not behave like the box dropped during the test flight.  Remember, the plane is still moving ahead at 200mph even as the placard has separated from the plane. The hi velocity vortex from the plane and its engines will catch up with the placard which is now shedding velocity ... those forces could conceivably lift the placard up vertically at first and stall its descent, or make it travel in loops, or tear it apart ... until gravity becomes the dominant force on the placard.

I have always wondered if the placard looks like it does (half an original placard) because it was torn apart in the jet's vortex? May the other half is laying on the ground somewhere?  That's a job for Kermit to find and solve!

This is not a single variable linear problem but a multi-variant problem for calculus! We have been trying to tell people that for a long time. Nobody is listening?

In the photo attached add another large vortex behind the plane (unseen in this photo) from the three engines all clustered. Those gases are propagating faster than any terminal v initially involved ... by a long long way! These vortexes behind the plane (as it is moving ahead) are propagating faster than any terminal-v the placard can ever have due to gravity! Now throw in winds and the direction of winds, once the placard manages to survive the vortexes and gets to less turbulent air which has no 'lift', so the plastic card (whats left of it) can begin to fall to have a terminal v. Then ask your question.  ;)

Im not saying anything that R99, 377, TK, Hominid, etal dont already know.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 01:56:29 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1983 on: April 27, 2019, 01:58:44 AM »
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What would be the estimated terminal of the placard?

The average descent speed of the placard, after it was out of the influence of the aircraft downwash, is estimated to be about 700 feet per minute at 10,000 feet altitude and less than that at lower altitudes.

It should be remembered that the descent rate of a 1971 round parachute was about 1000 to 1200 feet per minute.

Eric's earlier post comparing the drift of the placard with a parachute is in excellent agreement with these numbers.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 01:59:49 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1984 on: April 27, 2019, 02:05:01 AM »
can anyone prove it wasn't raining? the card would drop like a rock being that thin..plus the tear in it. moisture at high altitude. 8:03 radio transmission was 19 degree's at 10k. ice..same area... lots of variables...

 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1985 on: April 27, 2019, 02:06:16 AM »
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What would be the estimated terminal of the placard?

The average descent speed of the placard, after it was out of the influence of the aircraft downwash, is estimated to be about 700 feet per minute at 10,000 feet altitude and less than that at lower altitudes.

It should be remembered that the descent rate of a 1971 round parachute was about 1000 to 1200 feet per minute.

Eric's earlier post comparing the drift of the placard with a parachute is in excellent agreement with these numbers.

What;s the down angle of the 727 engines - its downward thrust component at the time the placard was released? Any?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 02:14:18 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1986 on: April 27, 2019, 02:13:22 AM »
basing this once again on the tumble?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 02:13:55 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1987 on: April 27, 2019, 02:21:18 AM »
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basing this once again on the tumble?

The placard may have experienced turbulent air when it was released. One more variable not mentioned: the plane is flying dirty - wheels down! Flaps ? That placard was not released into a smooth laminar flow. That placard may have been torn in two ...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 02:22:25 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1988 on: April 27, 2019, 02:22:42 AM »
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basing this once again on the tumble?

That picture of the placard does not look like the placard pictures that I have seen.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1989 on: April 27, 2019, 02:24:56 AM »
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basing this once again on the tumble?

That picture of the placard does not look like the placard pictures that I have seen.

Maybe it was flattened by someone to fit in an evidence envelope?  ::)

But again I ask: what was the down pitch of the engines at this point in the flight - any? Or can the pitch of the 727 engines be changed? I want to know how far below the plane turbulent high velocity air, extends? Can you tell us?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 02:32:09 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1990 on: April 27, 2019, 02:54:11 AM »
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basing this once again on the tumble?

That picture of the placard does not look like the placard pictures that I have seen.

Maybe it was flattened by someone to fit in an evidence envelope?  ::)

But again I ask: what was the down pitch of the engines at this point in the flight - any? Or can the pitch of the 727 engines be changed? I want to know how far below the plane turbulent high velocity air, extends? Can you tell us?

The short answer is "no" to all of your questions.  The wing tip vortices may continue for several minutes.  The engines are bolted in place and their "pitch" depends only on the angle of attack of the aircraft.  The 727 is reported to have had an unusually strong downwash and my guess is that the placard is going to go out the bottom of that downwash field fairly fast.  But there is no quantitative data on the flow field at altitude that I am aware of.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1991 on: April 27, 2019, 02:56:51 AM »
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The point is this: The placard was found WEST of the FBI flight path. Even if it's found right under the flight path it's a problem for the FBI Flight Path.

Why? Because even though I'm not a scientist, I've been walking the face of Mother Earth for 53 years, and I know when you drop a 1/3 oz. piece of plastic from 10K feet up into a wind of 31 KTS, the damn thing is going to blow with the wind.

R99's analysis shows a drift of about 8SM for the placard. The FBI shows a drift for Cooper of 5.6SM if Cooper opened the parachute immediately. This is commonsense.

So, your and R99's analysis says the winds were uniform and in the same direction from 10k feet to ground, both where the placard was released, and where Cooper jumped - which is in two different places miles apart.

And the the drift and terminal v of the placard and Cooper were more-or-less the same.

This is commonsense. Sort of like horses and zebras are the same.  ;D

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1992 on: April 27, 2019, 02:59:46 AM »
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basing this once again on the tumble?

That picture of the placard does not look like the placard pictures that I have seen.

Maybe it was flattened by someone to fit in an evidence envelope?  ::)

But again I ask: what was the down pitch of the engines at this point in the flight - any? Or can the pitch of the 727 engines be changed? I want to know how far below the plane turbulent high velocity air, extends? Can you tell us?

The short answer is "no" to all of your questions.  The wing tip vortices may continue for several minutes.  The engines are bolted in place and their "pitch" depends only on the angle of attack of the aircraft.  The 727 is reported to have had an unusually strong downwash and my guess is that the placard is going to go out the bottom of that downwash field fairly fast.  But there is no quantitative data on the flow field at altitude that I am aware of.

Well there is, to your last but that is beyond the scope of this forum. I noticed five pdfs on this subject just today ...

How would flying wheels down affect the release of the placard ?

What is meant by down wash?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 03:02:52 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1993 on: April 27, 2019, 03:03:41 AM »
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The point is this: The placard was found WEST of the FBI flight path. Even if it's found right under the flight path it's a problem for the FBI Flight Path.

Why? Because even though I'm not a scientist, I've been walking the face of Mother Earth for 53 years, and I know when you drop a 1/3 oz. piece of plastic from 10K feet up into a wind of 31 KTS, the damn thing is going to blow with the wind.

R99's analysis shows a drift of about 8SM for the placard. The FBI shows a drift for Cooper of 5.6SM if Cooper opened the parachute immediately. This is commonsense.

So, your and R99's analysis says the winds were uniform and in the same direction from 10k feet to ground, both where the placard was released, and where Cooper jumped - which is in two different places miles apart.

And the the drift and terminal v of the placard and Cooper were more-or-less the same.

This is commonsense. Sort of like horses and zebras are the same.  ;D

It is more like saying that horses and zebras each have four legs.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1994 on: April 27, 2019, 04:46:33 AM »
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The point is this: The placard was found WEST of the FBI flight path. Even if it's found right under the flight path it's a problem for the FBI Flight Path.

Why? Because even though I'm not a scientist, I've been walking the face of Mother Earth for 53 years, and I know when you drop a 1/3 oz. piece of plastic from 10K feet up into a wind of 31 KTS, the damn thing is going to blow with the wind.

R99's analysis shows a drift of about 8SM for the placard. The FBI shows a drift for Cooper of 5.6SM if Cooper opened the parachute immediately. This is commonsense.

So, your and R99's analysis says the winds were uniform and in the same direction from 10k feet to ground, both where the placard was released, and where Cooper jumped - which is in two different places miles apart.

And the the drift and terminal v of the placard and Cooper were more-or-less the same.

This is commonsense. Sort of like horses and zebras are the same.  ;D

It is more like saying that horses and zebras each have four legs.

Cute but no cigar.

Guess we dont get answers to the rest.   :(

From here on out its just a case of attrition, and who eats who first/last/forever.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 05:11:09 AM by georger »