Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 747494 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1635 on: April 01, 2019, 12:24:48 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think he said he would disarm it or take it with him...

yes ... agree.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1636 on: April 01, 2019, 12:28:51 AM »
perhaps he blew up and vaporized on the way down... :rofl:
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1637 on: April 01, 2019, 12:33:23 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
perhaps he blew up and vaporized on the way down... :rofl:

Maybe Janet saw it!  ;)
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1638 on: April 01, 2019, 03:33:39 PM »
There is something radically wrong and missing, in the record of this hijacking!

They had to know when he had the stairs open, he was going to bail! It was OBVIOUS! that escaping that plane was his primary goal, to the completion of his job. He said no funny stuff get the show on the road. Nobody in their right minds was expecting him to actually jump near Seattle, or ride the plane all the way to Reno ... The standing order from Nyrop to the crew was "cooperate to get rid of him asap". They were not allowed to simply take him out over the ocean and dump him ... Cooper himself is NOT going to bail into the wilderness ... and the only next place after Seattle is is the turns and the slowing they have to make to navigate around Vancouver-Portland. I think Cooper knew that all along and that was his plan.

And either the crew and everyone else were oblivious to this option and what Cooper was doing, OR we are missing all of the important communications that actually occurred between the plane and the Company etc in the 8:10-8:20 time period when the plane begins its turns to navigate V23 at Vancouver-Portland.

We have almost nothing to document this time period! Why is that?     
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1639 on: April 01, 2019, 03:38:57 PM »
Anybody have contact info for Sluggo that is up-to-date? If so, please let him know I would like contact. Thanks.

brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1640 on: April 01, 2019, 06:37:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is something radically wrong and missing, in the record of this hijacking!

They had to know when he had the stairs open, he was going to bail! It was OBVIOUS! that escaping that plane was his primary goal, to the completion of his job. He said no funny stuff get the show on the road. Nobody in their right minds was expecting him to actually jump near Seattle, or ride the plane all the way to Reno ... The standing order from Nyrop to the crew was "cooperate to get rid of him asap". They were not allowed to simply take him out over the ocean and dump him ... Cooper himself is NOT going to bail into the wilderness ... and the only next place after Seattle is is the turns and the slowing they have to make to navigate around Vancouver-Portland. I think Cooper knew that all along and that was his plan.

And either the crew and everyone else were oblivious to this option and what Cooper was doing, OR we are missing all of the important communications that actually occurred between the plane and the Company etc in the 8:10-8:20 time period when the plane begins its turns to navigate V23 at Vancouver-Portland.

We have almost nothing to document this time period! Why is that?   


I think it could boil down to Cooper catching them completely off guard. they gave indication of him on the stairs in the transcripts. the jump seems to be a mystery or they were talking on the "company phone" they failed to signal or even check the plane to see if he left...(chickens?) or were they told not to go back into the cabin. Cooper said it, but did NWO?

Later in the transcripts they make a statement of no communication in the last 55 minutes. this was made at 8:52? then the Marshal wants them to slowly climb in altitude to make him drowsy. apparently, they still had no idea if he was on or off the plane. they also try to make contact using the inter-phone. the last attempt was 0046 (10:30 ish?)

I'm guessing Reno had there hands full wondering if he bailed several miles before the airport and checking the plane. must of been a cluster for a while trying to figure everything out. I'm sure they quickly briefed the crew to find out where he could of left the plane and started working on a search area. Time goes by and more info comes in.

Perhaps it's time to open a thread and go through the case step by step as it happened. a recreation from start to finish?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 06:39:30 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1641 on: April 01, 2019, 11:40:50 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is something radically wrong and missing, in the record of this hijacking!

They had to know when he had the stairs open, he was going to bail! It was OBVIOUS! that escaping that plane was his primary goal, to the completion of his job. He said no funny stuff get the show on the road. Nobody in their right minds was expecting him to actually jump near Seattle, or ride the plane all the way to Reno ... The standing order from Nyrop to the crew was "cooperate to get rid of him asap". They were not allowed to simply take him out over the ocean and dump him ... Cooper himself is NOT going to bail into the wilderness ... and the only next place after Seattle is is the turns and the slowing they have to make to navigate around Vancouver-Portland. I think Cooper knew that all along and that was his plan.

And either the crew and everyone else were oblivious to this option and what Cooper was doing, OR we are missing all of the important communications that actually occurred between the plane and the Company etc in the 8:10-8:20 time period when the plane begins its turns to navigate V23 at Vancouver-Portland.

We have almost nothing to document this time period! Why is that?   


I think it could boil down to Cooper catching them completely off guard. they gave indication of him on the stairs in the transcripts. the jump seems to be a mystery or they were talking on the "company phone" they failed to signal or even check the plane to see if he left...(chickens?) or were they told not to go back into the cabin. Cooper said it, but did NWO?

Later in the transcripts they make a statement of no communication in the last 55 minutes. this was made at 8:52? then the Marshal wants them to slowly climb in altitude to make him drowsy. apparently, they still had no idea if he was on or off the plane. they also try to make contact using the inter-phone. the last attempt was 0046 (10:30 ish?)

I'm guessing Reno had there hands full wondering if he bailed several miles before the airport and checking the plane. must of been a cluster for a while trying to figure everything out. I'm sure they quickly briefed the crew to find out where he could of left the plane and started working on a search area. Time goes by and more info comes in.

Perhaps it's time to open a thread and go through the case step by step as it happened. a recreation from start to finish?

Key moments -

19:54 PST   Flt 305 reports: Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him and [she] thinks he will jump.   Pilot   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
19:54 PST   Flt Ops MSP advised that they have a direct phone patch hooked up on 131.8 MHz.   Flt-Ops MSP   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP

They are ready to report on Cooper bailing ...

20:05 PST   Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully, then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.   Pilot   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP

20:12 PST   Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.   Pilot   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP  [on the revised chart 11-08, this position is moved south of original FBI search map position]

20:20 PST   Flt Ops MSP request Go to 131.8 MHz.   Flt-Ops MSP   Attempted Comm. with Flt 305
20:20 PST   Flt-Ops SEA advises Flt 305 is already on that frequency   Flt-Ops SEA   Comm. between Flt-Ops MSP and Flt-Ops SEA

By now according to Anderson they knew he was gone and Ratczk has radioed it in ...

BIG LAPSE WITH NO COMMS REPORTED!

20:33 PST   Flt 305 reports still at 10,000 ft.
20:33 to 21:43 PST
21:00 = 9:00pm   This period is uneventful? Comms. consists of Radar Station hand-offs, altimeter settings etc, The last altimeter setting was at Montague, CA at 21:41 PST. So they were near the OR/CA border just SW of Klamath Falls when they changed altitude.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 11:54:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1642 on: April 04, 2019, 12:35:17 AM »
The flt Path discussion has been taken here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

 :congrats:
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1643 on: April 04, 2019, 06:47:25 AM »
Flyjack is implying the jump occurred at 8:09 based on looking over the flight data recorder with a microscope. there is clearly 5 minutes between Cooper's last contact and the crew reporting the oscillation. this can't be changed. if the time's were not on the transcripts then something of value could be noted.

They report the oscillation and not the pressure bump.

The plane was in fact in the same area as the transcripts show at around 8:10 according to simulations. Flyjack is correct it could be off by a minute but that also applies to being off a minute ahead as well. calculation are very handy but simulation will help further the calculations.

I will have to look again but I only recall the 302 talking about the auto pilot and not the "little Bobs" these are what was seen with the microscope and could be anything from wind or turbulence causing the auto pilot to make adjustments. I believe it was Scott who did feel a change in pitch while Cooper was on the stairs.

The original search area began there until more data came in moving the search area south.

Flyjack no longer comments here so I replied to him which I have a right to do....
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 06:52:49 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1644 on: April 04, 2019, 01:09:49 PM »
I had some time to kill yesterday as my wife had a appointment in nearby Castle Rock. I took a ride up to the area of the Placard find location. It’s quite a few miles East of I 5. I’m not sure exactly how many miles “ as the crow flies “, but it’s quite a jaunt via wheels. Silver Lake is 7 to 8 miles, Toutle is 10 miles and it’s S E of Toutle. The area has been heavily hunted and logged over the last 47 years so it’s doubtful anything Cooper related is still lying around. I think Carroll Hicks has passed away but I’ve never got the name of his hunting partner. I am friends with several who grew up in Toutle and Longview/Kelso area. I encountered several logging trucks exiting the area stacked high so there’s plenty of logging activity as we speak.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1645 on: April 04, 2019, 03:13:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Flyjack is implying the jump occurred at 8:09 based on looking over the flight data recorder with a microscope. there is clearly 5 minutes between Cooper's last contact and the crew reporting the oscillation. this can't be changed. if the time's were not on the transcripts then something of value could be noted.

They report the oscillation and not the pressure bump.

The plane was in fact in the same area as the transcripts show at around 8:10 according to simulations. Flyjack is correct it could be off by a minute but that also applies to being off a minute ahead as well. calculation are very handy but simulation will help further the calculations.

I will have to look again but I only recall the 302 talking about the auto pilot and not the "little Bobs" these are what was seen with the microscope and could be anything from wind or turbulence causing the auto pilot to make adjustments. I believe it was Scott who did feel a change in pitch while Cooper was on the stairs.

The original search area began there until more data came in moving the search area south.

Flyjack no longer comments here so I replied to him which I have a right to do....

More 302 stuff. When are we going to get to see these 302's?

I assume little bobs seen through a microscope on a FDR would refer to change in altitude?   Little bobs in what?

Little Bob as plane passed over Camp Washington at 8:06 ? Where is Camp Washington?

What is a 'little bob' of some parameter for a 727 flying under the configs 305 was flying? Is there a BIG BOB? Little bobs seen only under a microscope ... BIG BOBs lift crew out of their seats?

What happened to 'could see the lights of Vancouver coming up at ..." ? Is that now nullified by a 'little bob' or a 'big bob' over Camp Washington at 8:06'?     

What FDR data/parameters are being discussed in these 302's?

*If it was known/proved by somebody that 305 was over at Camp Washington at 8:06 then why is the Search map so big and extending all the way into Oregon? Why didnt they just go to Camp Washington, knock on a door, and ask "Is Cooper here?"  :rofl:

** What exactly is Flyjack seeing today that everyone missed back then ?? 


BTW: That FDR only measured speed, altitude and direction, magnetic deviation. It did not measure pressure. So the 'little bobs' are 'bobilations' in what?

 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 03:41:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1646 on: April 04, 2019, 04:11:55 PM »
For God's sake share these 302's!  That is standard protocol in any analysis.

What are the dates of these 302 ... and their whole contact?

PUBLISH THE 302'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1647 on: April 04, 2019, 04:13:14 PM »
Georger, I just got home this very second.. the 302's are in the FBI vault. I haven't been there yet to pull them out.
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1648 on: April 04, 2019, 04:19:57 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Georger, I just got home this very second.. the 302's are in the FBI vault. I haven't been there yet to pull them out.

no rush!

 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1649 on: April 04, 2019, 04:26:12 PM »
here is one...