Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787738 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8040 on: August 14, 2022, 03:48:34 PM »
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Bit of talk recently regarding the comms relating to the jump time of Cooper.

Larry Carr told me personally (on Eric Ulis's Facebook page) that a transcript of the NWA comms with Flight 305 exists. In his reading of this, he confirms that when the pressure bump happened, they were not on the phone with NWA, but called afterward to report the incident. This comports with what Anderson said in 2014.

Carr said that the person doing the recording did not write down the time that the report was received, but instead estimated the time that the crew thought they felt the pressure bump.

This would seemingly eliminate the 8:11 jump time based upon the "Rataczak losing his ear piece" comm.

This would put the pressure bump an unknown amount of time AFTER the 8:11 time of the report of "oscillations". How far after is still a guess.

Chaucer, FlyJack has posted the FBI reports of Soderlind's statement regarding this.  Soderlind stated that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM, repeat NO LATER THAN 8:12 PM, and this eliminates your theory that he jumped somewhere south of the Columbia River.

The ARINC radio communication with NWA Minneapolis and Seattle do also exist in written form in the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The Harrison family loaned a roll of those teletype transcripts to the WSHM.  The WSHM digital crew did an analysis of those transcripts and concluded that some of the transcripts had been deleted from that roll.  We have discussed this at length previously.

I have a copy of the WSHM's analysis of those transcripts but I am not going to release them to anyone without WSHM's permission and I am not going to ask for their permission.  I have suggested several times that you contact Fred Poynter at WSHM and ask for a copy of their analysis.  You need to do some networking on this matter.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8041 on: August 14, 2022, 07:34:26 PM »
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Bit of talk recently regarding the comms relating to the jump time of Cooper.

Larry Carr told me personally (on Eric Ulis's Facebook page) that a transcript of the NWA comms with Flight 305 exists. In his reading of this, he confirms that when the pressure bump happened, they were not on the phone with NWA, but called afterward to report the incident. This comports with what Anderson said in 2014.

Carr said that the person doing the recording did not write down the time that the report was received, but instead estimated the time that the crew thought they felt the pressure bump.

This would seemingly eliminate the 8:11 jump time based upon the "Rataczak losing his ear piece" comm.

This would put the pressure bump an unknown amount of time AFTER the 8:11 time of the report of "oscillations". How far after is still a guess.

Chaucer, FlyJack has posted the FBI reports of Soderlind's statement regarding this.  Soderlind stated that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM, repeat NO LATER THAN 8:12 PM, and this eliminates your theory that he jumped somewhere south of the Columbia River.

The ARINC radio communication with NWA Minneapolis and Seattle do also exist in written form in the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The Harrison family loaned a roll of those teletype transcripts to the WSHM.  The WSHM digital crew did an analysis of those transcripts and concluded that some of the transcripts had been deleted from that roll.  We have discussed this at length previously.

I have a copy of the WSHM's analysis of those transcripts but I am not going to release them to anyone without WSHM's permission and I am not going to ask for their permission.  I have suggested several times that you contact Fred Poynter at WSHM and ask for a copy of their analysis.  You need to do some networking on this matter.
Care to post this document where Soderlind states that the jump could not have occurred after 8:12? I am not aware of it.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8042 on: August 14, 2022, 10:23:22 PM »
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Bit of talk recently regarding the comms relating to the jump time of Cooper.

Larry Carr told me personally (on Eric Ulis's Facebook page) that a transcript of the NWA comms with Flight 305 exists. In his reading of this, he confirms that when the pressure bump happened, they were not on the phone with NWA, but called afterward to report the incident. This comports with what Anderson said in 2014.

Carr said that the person doing the recording did not write down the time that the report was received, but instead estimated the time that the crew thought they felt the pressure bump.

This would seemingly eliminate the 8:11 jump time based upon the "Rataczak losing his ear piece" comm.

This would put the pressure bump an unknown amount of time AFTER the 8:11 time of the report of "oscillations". How far after is still a guess.

Chaucer, FlyJack has posted the FBI reports of Soderlind's statement regarding this.  Soderlind stated that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM, repeat NO LATER THAN 8:12 PM, and this eliminates your theory that he jumped somewhere south of the Columbia River.

The ARINC radio communication with NWA Minneapolis and Seattle do also exist in written form in the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The Harrison family loaned a roll of those teletype transcripts to the WSHM.  The WSHM digital crew did an analysis of those transcripts and concluded that some of the transcripts had been deleted from that roll.  We have discussed this at length previously.

I have a copy of the WSHM's analysis of those transcripts but I am not going to release them to anyone without WSHM's permission and I am not going to ask for their permission.  I have suggested several times that you contact Fred Poynter at WSHM and ask for a copy of their analysis.  You need to do some networking on this matter.
Care to post this document where Soderlind states that the jump could not have occurred after 8:12? I am not aware of it.

It is an FBI document that FlyJack has posted on DropZone.  I have previously listed FlyJack's post number here and it has been discussed in some detail on this site.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8043 on: August 14, 2022, 11:56:08 PM »
I don’t participate on that forum, so I have no knowledge of anything posted there. I also don’t comment on forums that I don’t participate in.

I’ve looked for the discussion you referenced on here, but don’t see anything relevant.

Post the information here so that it can be discussed here.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8044 on: August 15, 2022, 02:13:47 AM »
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I don’t participate on that forum, so I have no knowledge of anything posted there. I also don’t comment on forums that I don’t participate in.

I’ve looked for the discussion you referenced on here, but don’t see anything relevant.

Post the information here so that it can be discussed here.

Chaucer, you don't have to "participate" in Dropzone to read the posts there.  The posts by FlyJack that I cited here earlier have already been discussed here and are relevant.

So if you are not going to even read the posts that have been made and discussed on this site just exactly what are you doing here?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8045 on: August 15, 2022, 10:31:23 AM »
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I don’t participate on that forum, so I have no knowledge of anything posted there. I also don’t comment on forums that I don’t participate in.

I’ve looked for the discussion you referenced on here, but don’t see anything relevant.

Post the information here so that it can be discussed here.

Chaucer, you don't have to "participate" in Dropzone to read the posts there.  The posts by FlyJack that I cited here earlier have already been discussed here and are relevant.

So if you are not going to even read the posts that have been made and discussed on this site just exactly what are you doing here?
I'm here to discuss the case HERE and interact with the people HERE.

I shouldn't have to go to one forum to read a post and then come back here to discuss it.  I'm on the Cooper Facebook group. I post things from there on here all the time. I don't make other people go to Facebook and read a post and then come back here to talk about it.

If you think it's that important, you can post it here. If you can't be bothered to do that, then it must not be that important.

Don't make me or anyone else do your chores for you.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8046 on: August 15, 2022, 01:50:08 PM »
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I don’t participate on that forum, so I have no knowledge of anything posted there. I also don’t comment on forums that I don’t participate in.

I’ve looked for the discussion you referenced on here, but don’t see anything relevant.

Post the information here so that it can be discussed here.

Chaucer, you don't have to "participate" in Dropzone to read the posts there.  The posts by FlyJack that I cited here earlier have already been discussed here and are relevant.

So if you are not going to even read the posts that have been made and discussed on this site just exactly what are you doing here?
I'm here to discuss the case HERE and interact with the people HERE.

I shouldn't have to go to one forum to read a post and then come back here to discuss it.  I'm on the Cooper Facebook group. I post things from there on here all the time. I don't make other people go to Facebook and read a post and then come back here to talk about it.

If you think it's that important, you can post it here. If you can't be bothered to do that, then it must not be that important.

Don't make me or anyone else do your chores for you.

To repeat, the post in question has already been cited and discussed here on Shutter's site.  Perhaps you should take time out of your busy schedule to read that discussion.

FlyJack posted an FBI document.  If all else fails, maybe you could look that document up in the FBI releases and post it here yourself.  If you can't bring yourself to at least give a casual examination of all the information related to the Cooper hijacking then you are wasting your time.

The above is not an insult. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8047 on: August 15, 2022, 02:31:26 PM »
Robert,

First, I searched for that "discussion" on here, and I could only find your post telling everyone to go to the other forum and read the post. There was no "discussion".

Second, how would you propose I look up an FBI document, if you don't tell anyone WHICH document? There are tens of thousands of pages in the Vault. Do you want me to guess which one is relevant?

Third, you have made it clear that you have figured this case out and that there is nothing more for you to learn about it. You have also made it clear your utter disdain for anyone asking questions or for assistance. Your contributions amount to telling people to "go back and look at previous posts" or "go look at this post on this website".

So, I ask you:  what exactly are you doing here?
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8048 on: August 15, 2022, 02:56:55 PM »
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Persistent pesky questions about them stairs and the oscillations and bump...

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...going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument...     ...this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there...     

In that clip from the Treat Williams movie, when the stunt guy jumps off the stairs, they retract very slightly and slowly. They certainly don't 'slam' shut, even momentarily. I would imagine the pilot could feel a bit of change on the pitch influence, but I don't see it re-sealing the cabin momentarily and causing a pressure event. For the stairs to behave in the way described, I would guess that Cooper would have to have pulled the emergency release, which should disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to free-float. But I'm told that did not happen, that he did not pull the emergency release. So would there be that much variable from plane to plane, how much the stair door would be able to move while still connected to (dampened by) the hydraulic system?  ...??
I don't have a good answer for that either. I have heard different things - the stairs hydraulics were not deployed and the stairs were freefloating and vice versa. Regardless, it seems that the pressure bump was simulated during the drop test in January 1972.

Here is what I do know:  the cabin rate of climb and descent gauge uses a sensor in the cabin to measure cabin pressure altitude. During an unpressurized flight - like the Cooper hijacking for example - it will read approximately the altitude that the aircraft is at. It will respond just like the flight altimeter - going up and down with the aircraft.

I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid.

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If the plane was experiencing a phugoid, that would be reflected as oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator. I think the slow extension of the airstairs by Cooper caused phugoid oscillations in the aircraft that the crew noticed on the gauges. When Cooper jumped, the crew experienced a pressure bump - a rather well-known phenomenon in aviation when the pressure of the cabin increases dramatically - that usually causes your ears to "pop". When that happened, the airstairs were no longer descending and the aircraft stabilized from its phugoid.

Thus, while both phenomena - the phugoid oscillations and the pressure bump - were caused by Cooper's behavior on the airstairs, they were distinct things. Whether the crew, the airline flight ops, or the FBI understood the difference when it happened or immediately after is the question.

 and a longer mode called the phugoid.



But the phugoid simply cannot explain the cabin pressure altitude oscillations or the bump when the stairs hit the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  It is just not possible.

Chaucer, the above is not an insult.       

Regardless, isn't important thing here it gave us the time of his jump?  Obviously it does not give the position of the aircraft in relation to the Victor 23 path in the sky?  That is what needs to be solved.   It could give a better location, or more confident one to perform another land search with metal detectors?  They sure brought in some high tech devices at Skinwalker ranch.  I wonder if any of that could help?  I wonder what Brandon Fugal thinks of this case?

Why don't you ask Brandon Fugal? I'm watching the "Secret of Skinwalker Ranch" on Amazon Prime.
I like Brandon Fugal.  The guy is very humble and extremely intelligent. He  did not become a billionaire by being stupid.  Very good guy to listen to.  I really would like to hear his opinion on this but he has his hands full with the madness at Skinwalker ranch.  He came  into it a total skeptic.  Day one he sees a flying saucer go over his house and the rest is history
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8049 on: August 15, 2022, 04:46:10 PM »
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Robert,

First, I searched for that "discussion" on here, and I could only find your post telling everyone to go to the other forum and read the post. There was no "discussion".

Second, how would you propose I look up an FBI document, if you don't tell anyone WHICH document? There are tens of thousands of pages in the Vault. Do you want me to guess which one is relevant?

Third, you have made it clear that you have figured this case out and that there is nothing more for you to learn about it. You have also made it clear your utter disdain for anyone asking questions or for assistance. Your contributions amount to telling people to "go back and look at previous posts" or "go look at this post on this website".

So, I ask you:  what exactly are you doing here?

My dear Chaucer, in the original post on this matter I gave the number of FlyJack's post on DropZone.  All you have to do is go there and read the FBI document that FlyJack posted.  This is neither brain surgery nor rocket science.  It shouldn't take more than one minute for you to get there.

The above is not an insult.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8050 on: August 15, 2022, 07:46:18 PM »
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Robert,

First, I searched for that "discussion" on here, and I could only find your post telling everyone to go to the other forum and read the post. There was no "discussion".

Second, how would you propose I look up an FBI document, if you don't tell anyone WHICH document? There are tens of thousands of pages in the Vault. Do you want me to guess which one is relevant?

Third, you have made it clear that you have figured this case out and that there is nothing more for you to learn about it. You have also made it clear your utter disdain for anyone asking questions or for assistance. Your contributions amount to telling people to "go back and look at previous posts" or "go look at this post on this website".

So, I ask you:  what exactly are you doing here?

My dear Chaucer, in the original post on this matter I gave the number of FlyJack's post on DropZone.  All you have to do is go there and read the FBI document that FlyJack posted.  This is neither brain surgery nor rocket science.  It shouldn't take more than one minute for you to get there.

The above is not an insult.
All you have to do is you simply post the document here. This is neither brain surgery nor rocket science.  It shouldn't take more than one minute for you to do so.

I think this argument is boring and stupid, and I'm done discussing it.
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Offline WalterRaleigh

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8051 on: August 15, 2022, 08:01:37 PM »
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Kaye and his team did a very thorough analysis of the missing cord from the pink parachute. Did they test the cord for DNA?

I presume Cooper would have cut the cord as shown in the attached image link (pretty standard method, I think).

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Would that abrasion of the cord against his hands have been enough to transfer cells and leave DNA?  Anything worth testing?

My understanding is that the DNA on the tie is only a "partial" sequence. Is there a chance of getting a better sample from the parachute cord?

Unfortunately from looking at the pictures on Tom's site, it appears the parachute was handled without gloves and was spread upon a table in a common area, so it may be rife with contaminatation.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 08:05:53 PM by WalterRaleigh »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8052 on: August 15, 2022, 08:17:53 PM »
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Hayden provided the two backpack parachutes that were given to Cooper and he said they were identical.  The surviving backpack is now on display at the WSHM in Tacoma, WA.  The pictures of that backpack indicate that it was put together from a collection of parts that came from different designs and did not itself have a formal designation.

I looked at the pictures of Hayden's rig on Bruce's site. I do not see a 'Frankenstein rig' pieced together from a collection of parts of different designs. This is what I do see:

The harness is a different color from the container. This in and of itself is not that unusual. What is interesting is that the Pioneer label is specific to the harness, and not the whole rig. That big label on the backpad seems to have instructions on it, but I do not see a manufacturer on that. The container does not look pieced together, it seems to be of similar design to the NB's in that both are three-pin rigs with four pack-opening bands and similar ripcord routings. The pack and data card says Pioneer, so it is possible/likely that they made the whole rig. The military NB rigs are made to be rugged, to withstand years of use by different people and in different aircraft. Hayden's rig looks to be made of lighter weight material, which might be typical of rigs built for civilian use, they would be lighter weight and more flexible, and be subject to less wear-and-tear. The military would come up with that NB design, and over the years there may be several manufacturing runs which may be done by different manufacturers. I think I've seen later models of NB's made by Switlick, but it would not be unusual if Pioneer made them at some point. If so, it would not be unusual for them to make the harnesses in batches, then use some of those same harnesses for their other rigs. In the finished form, the harness/container is a singular unit and does not come apart. Those bailout rigs are reserves, and as such they have to pass tests for an FAA TSO. If that rig was not a legitimately manufactured rig, it would not be legal for a rigger to pack it, put his seal on it, sign the card, and provide it for use by someone such as Hayden. I think the notion of a pieced-together rig came from a statement somewhere from Cossey, but those 'pieces' would refer to the other components inside, notably the links, canopy, bridle, and pilot chute. Unless otherwise dictated by the manufacturer, he is free to choose those components as he sees fit, as long as they fit and function suitably, and are TSO'd for such use.

Well geez, I might just stand corrected. Flyjack has that container documented as WW2 era and cotton. I thought it looked kind of old, but I wouldn't have thought THAT old, and at least two riggers signed it off as airworthy, as late as '86?? That thing should probably have been in a museum before either Cooper, Hayden, or whoever replaced the harness got any of their hands on it! Sheesh...
Does this change your mind at all about the probability of survival of Cooper?

No. Parachutes, especially the containers, are exceedingly simple devices, far simpler than, say, the brakes on your car. Nothing about it just being old would prevent it from working. And frankly, it wasn't really all that old when the harness was replaced. If that thing was WW2, that means it was built sometime in the 40's? Someone puts a '57 harness on it, so it's what, 15 or 20 years old at the time? That's not really out of line if it is kept well, especially a bailout rig that doesn't actually get jumped. In civilian hands, how often does it actually get out of the closet? The issue would be more the materials. If, in that time, they went from cotton to nylon, I would think that riggers and the manufacturers would want to get the older ones out of service and replaced with the updated ones. But later in the 70's and 80's (the last date on the card was '86) when it's 30 and 40 years old, that surprises me that someone is still willing to pack it. But it's up to the rigger, who would inspect it's condition. And if that last pack job was just to get it ready for the museum, and not intended for use, that should be noted on the card (but isn't).

Also... Hayden says his two rigs were 'identical'. What does that mean? He's not a jumper, in fact according to Blevins' interview with Hayden, he sort of resented the FAA requiring him to wear it (for aerobatic flying) and never intended to use it (typical for many pilots). So how familiar is he with parachutes? Look at the design of that container, compared with the NB's. Very similar. And how many of those WW2 rigs would there still be around? Irrespective of Cossey's questionable remarks, some documents describe those rigs as one being tan (that one), and the other being sage green. That would be consistent with a newer, nylon rig. And that could well have been what influenced Cooper's choice of which one to take.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8053 on: August 16, 2022, 10:26:26 AM »
Just curious.  I have asked about voice recognition analysis to be done as have others, and now I wonder if they ever did hand writing comparisons with known suspects?  I know they did with Richard McCoy on the Denver to SF/LA flight.  He gave them hand writing samples.  The way he wrote his name on the ticket, DAN all in caps and then the Cooper part looks almost like he changed to smaller case?  This is a habit by some but a hand writing expert could likely do a comparison?  For Gods sake you may say this is petty and desperate, but desperate is just an understatement when it comes to solving this. What is there to lose by doing the voice and writing comparison?  I know its likely already been done and you all have that info? I do not. Maybe Bill Rollins will read this?  he seems to be a guy that is willing to talk to new people that are curious about this?  As is Bruce. Some others, not so much.  Like that guy that made a huge deal about whether Cooper drank actual club soda with his bourbon or 7 up as was supposedly the case?  i have never heard this until that someone came on here and openly scolded me about it. Well, if you order a damn bourbon and soda at a bar, THEY GIVE YOU CLUB SODA!!!!!!  FACT!!!!!!!!
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8054 on: August 16, 2022, 10:36:43 AM »
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Just curious.  I have asked about voice recognition analysis to be done as have others, and now I wonder if they ever did hand writing comparisons with known suspects?  I know they did with Richard McCoy on the Denver to SF/LA flight.  He gave them hand writing samples.  The way he wrote his name on the ticket, DAN all in caps and then the Cooper part looks almost like he changed to smaller case?  This is a habit by some but a hand writing expert could likely do a comparison?  For Gods sake you may say this is petty and desperate, but desperate is just an understatement when it comes to solving this. What is there to lose by doing the voice and writing comparison?  I know its likely already been done and you all have that info? I do not. Maybe Bill Rollins will read this?  he seems to be a guy that is willing to talk to new people that are curious about this?  As is Bruce. Some others, not so much.  Like that guy that made a huge deal about whether Cooper drank actual club soda with his bourbon or 7 up as was supposedly the case?  i have never heard this until that someone came on here and openly scolded me about it. Well, if you order a damn bourbon and soda at a bar, THEY GIVE YOU CLUB SODA!!!!!!  FACT!!!!!!!!

My understanding, is that the consensus, and more importantly the FBI do no believe that the name "DAN COOPER" on the ticket was written by the hijacker.  They believe it was filled out by the NWO ticket agent.  If this is true, there is nothing to do a hand writing analysis with.

Perhaps Bill Rollins is disputing this, if so, it would be good to see his reasoning or what his assertion is based on that the hijacker actually wrote the name Dan Cooper on the ticket.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 10:38:25 AM by JAG »