Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787672 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8055 on: August 16, 2022, 11:38:15 AM »
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Just curious.  I have asked about voice recognition analysis to be done as have others, and now I wonder if they ever did hand writing comparisons with known suspects?  I know they did with Richard McCoy on the Denver to SF/LA flight.  He gave them hand writing samples.  The way he wrote his name on the ticket, DAN all in caps and then the Cooper part looks almost like he changed to smaller case?  This is a habit by some but a hand writing expert could likely do a comparison?  For Gods sake you may say this is petty and desperate, but desperate is just an understatement when it comes to solving this. What is there to lose by doing the voice and writing comparison?  I know its likely already been done and you all have that info? I do not. Maybe Bill Rollins will read this?  he seems to be a guy that is willing to talk to new people that are curious about this?  As is Bruce. Some others, not so much.  Like that guy that made a huge deal about whether Cooper drank actual club soda with his bourbon or 7 up as was supposedly the case?  i have never heard this until that someone came on here and openly scolded me about it. Well, if you order a damn bourbon and soda at a bar, THEY GIVE YOU CLUB SODA!!!!!!  FACT!!!!!!!!

My understanding, is that the consensus, and more importantly the FBI do no believe that the name "DAN COOPER" on the ticket was written by the hijacker.  They believe it was filled out by the NWO ticket agent.  If this is true, there is nothing to do a hand writing analysis with.

Perhaps Bill Rollins is disputing this, if so, it would be good to see his reasoning or what his assertion is based on that the hijacker actually wrote the name Dan Cooper on the ticket.

In 1971, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8056 on: August 16, 2022, 01:25:53 PM »
I don’t doubt that “DAN COOPER” was written by the ticket agent. However, an interesting tidbit is that Bill Mitchell’s ticket appears to have been written in different handwriting than Cooper’s. One would assume that two different agents were working the desk that night.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8057 on: August 16, 2022, 01:38:26 PM »
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I don’t doubt that “DAN COOPER” was written by the ticket agent. However, an interesting tidbit is that Bill Mitchell’s ticket appears to have been written in different handwriting than Cooper’s. One would assume that two different agents were working the desk that night.

It is entirely possible that two ticket agents were involved in the ticketing, handling the baggage, etc.  Although the airliner arrived at Portland a number of minutes late, the ticketed passengers and non-ticketed passengers would probably arrive more or less as a group prior to the published departure time and the NWA counter personnel would be increased to get them all processed for the flight.  The actual gate departure time was a few minutes before 3:00 PM.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8058 on: August 16, 2022, 01:55:33 PM »
Eric Ulis has posted a new video:



I have spoken with Eric about this, and I have no doubt that this is what Cliff Ammerman told him. However, I am having a hard time finding Ammerman’s account credible.

First, if a plane was given the wrong frequency and handed off to the wrong radar sector, that ATC would instantly recognize that plane’s altitude and immediately correct the error. I find it inconceivable that it would take 14 minutes to figure out the problem and fix it.

Second, R4 covers Malay from Battleground, and the 7:59 to 8:13 “missing minutes” covers this area perfectly in terms of flight time. Is this just an incredible coincidence that it took this exact amount of time to get 305 back to Ammerman? Or are we to believe that the wrong ATC decided to simply handle 305 for it’s duration of it’s journey trough R4? That seems hard to believe. 

Third, based on the maps below, R16 isn’t even in the correct area. It doesn’t cover the high altitude area from Malay to Battleground but an area farther south and east. Granted, it is possible that these sectors have changed since 1971, but the low altitude sectors have remained unchanged. Unless there’s documentation otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that the high altitude sectors have not changed either. So, what gives?

Fourth, why has Ammerman’s account changed so dramatically from his original statements? Why was this never revealed by him before? This would be a huge development and it seems CA is simply shrugging his shoulders and saying “Oh, yeah, I forgot.” I’m not even sure how to process Ammerman’s story about allowing R6 to handle 305. He’s never said this before and there’s no documentation that he ever did this.

I’m in the process of seeking an air traffic controller to get some more insight and see if this new scenario of Ammerman’s is true.



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Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8059 on: August 16, 2022, 01:55:54 PM »
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I don’t doubt that “DAN COOPER” was written by the ticket agent. However, an interesting tidbit is that Bill Mitchell’s ticket appears to have been written in different handwriting than Cooper’s. One would assume that two different agents were working the desk that night.

It is entirely possible that two ticket agents were involved in the ticketing, handling the baggage, etc.  Although the airliner arrived at Portland a number of minutes late, the ticketed passengers and non-ticketed passengers would probably arrive more or less as a group prior to the published departure time and the NWA counter personnel would be increased to get them all processed for the flight.  The actual gate departure time was a few minutes before 3:00 PM.
Agreed.
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8060 on: August 16, 2022, 02:43:18 PM »
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Eric Ulis has posted a new video:



I have spoken with Eric about this, and I have no doubt that this is what Cliff Ammerman told him. However, I am having a hard time finding Ammerman’s account credible.

First, if a plane was given the wrong frequency and handed off to the wrong radar sector, that ATC would instantly recognize that plane’s altitude and immediately correct the error. I find it inconceivable that it would take 14 minutes to figure out the problem and fix it.

Second, R4 covers Malay from Battleground, and the 7:59 to 8:13 “missing minutes” covers this area perfectly in terms of flight time. Is this just an incredible coincidence that it took this exact amount of time to get 305 back to Ammerman? Or are we to believe that the wrong ATC decided to simply handle 305 for it’s duration of it’s journey trough R4? That seems hard to believe. 

Third, based on the maps below, R16 isn’t even in the correct area. It doesn’t cover the high altitude area from Malay to Battleground but an area farther south and east. Granted, it is possible that these sectors have changed since 1971, but the low altitude sectors have remained unchanged. Unless there’s documentation otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that the high altitude sectors have not changed either. So, what gives?

Fourth, why has Ammerman’s account changed so dramatically from his original statements? Why was this never revealed by him before? This would be a huge development and it seems CA is simply shrugging his shoulders and saying “Oh, yeah, I forgot.” I’m not even sure how to process Ammerman’s story about allowing R6 to handle 305. He’s never said this before and there’s no documentation that he ever did this.

I’m in the process of seeking an air traffic controller to get some more insight and see if this new scenario of Ammerman’s is true.





I saw the video the other day, and I also thought it odd that this was just coming out now.  But, also thought that maybe it was stated previously and I simply missed it.

R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 02:43:47 PM by JAG »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8061 on: August 16, 2022, 03:03:18 PM »
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Just curious.  I have asked about voice recognition analysis to be done as have others, and now I wonder if they ever did hand writing comparisons with known suspects?  I know they did with Richard McCoy on the Denver to SF/LA flight.  He gave them hand writing samples.  The way he wrote his name on the ticket, DAN all in caps and then the Cooper part looks almost like he changed to smaller case?  This is a habit by some but a hand writing expert could likely do a comparison?  For Gods sake you may say this is petty and desperate, but desperate is just an understatement when it comes to solving this. What is there to lose by doing the voice and writing comparison?  I know its likely already been done and you all have that info? I do not. Maybe Bill Rollins will read this?  he seems to be a guy that is willing to talk to new people that are curious about this?  As is Bruce. Some others, not so much.  Like that guy that made a huge deal about whether Cooper drank actual club soda with his bourbon or 7 up as was supposedly the case?  i have never heard this until that someone came on here and openly scolded me about it. Well, if you order a damn bourbon and soda at a bar, THEY GIVE YOU CLUB SODA!!!!!!  FACT!!!!!!!!

My understanding, is that the consensus, and more importantly the FBI do no believe that the name "DAN COOPER" on the ticket was written by the hijacker.  They believe it was filled out by the NWO ticket agent.  If this is true, there is nothing to do a hand writing analysis with.

Perhaps Bill Rollins is disputing this, if so, it would be good to see his reasoning or what his assertion is based on that the hijacker actually wrote the name Dan Cooper on the ticket.

In 1971, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket.

Thanks.  There goes another chance.  Stack it with the cigarette butts.  The circus continues.  So let me know if there is anything new on the Zodiac to those that follow it?  I really love watching prison breaks.  Richard McCoy's was textbook.  Shots blazing off the truck and all.  Gets the blood pumping.  LOL
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8062 on: August 16, 2022, 06:30:51 PM »
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Eric Ulis has posted a new video:



I have spoken with Eric about this, and I have no doubt that this is what Cliff Ammerman told him. However, I am having a hard time finding Ammerman’s account credible.

First, if a plane was given the wrong frequency and handed off to the wrong radar sector, that ATC would instantly recognize that plane’s altitude and immediately correct the error. I find it inconceivable that it would take 14 minutes to figure out the problem and fix it.

Second, R4 covers Malay from Battleground, and the 7:59 to 8:13 “missing minutes” covers this area perfectly in terms of flight time. Is this just an incredible coincidence that it took this exact amount of time to get 305 back to Ammerman? Or are we to believe that the wrong ATC decided to simply handle 305 for it’s duration of it’s journey trough R4? That seems hard to believe. 

Third, based on the maps below, R16 isn’t even in the correct area. It doesn’t cover the high altitude area from Malay to Battleground but an area farther south and east. Granted, it is possible that these sectors have changed since 1971, but the low altitude sectors have remained unchanged. Unless there’s documentation otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that the high altitude sectors have not changed either. So, what gives?

Fourth, why has Ammerman’s account changed so dramatically from his original statements? Why was this never revealed by him before? This would be a huge development and it seems CA is simply shrugging his shoulders and saying “Oh, yeah, I forgot.” I’m not even sure how to process Ammerman’s story about allowing R6 to handle 305. He’s never said this before and there’s no documentation that he ever did this.

I’m in the process of seeking an air traffic controller to get some more insight and see if this new scenario of Ammerman’s is true.





I saw the video the other day, and I also thought it odd that this was just coming out now.  But, also thought that maybe it was stated previously and I simply missed it.

R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?
The other thing that is odd is that there is another 18 minute long absence of communications between 8:15 and 8:33. I guess Ammerman claims that this is because he handed 305 off to R6 because he was too busy handling the trail planes, but there is nothing in the ATC transcripts to suggest that this is true.

Lots of red flags in CA’s story, IMO.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8063 on: August 17, 2022, 02:21:02 AM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.         
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8064 on: August 17, 2022, 06:51:54 AM »
This is the link I have for Sluggo's site:

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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8065 on: August 17, 2022, 09:12:24 AM »
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This is the link I have for Sluggo's site:

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Thanks for the site link   I am going to check that out later  Watching Tom Colbert and his Rackstraw theory.  And Zodiac conversation is included.Tom is a smart guy but he has obstacles to clear with Mr Rackstraw as do the other suspects. 
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8066 on: August 17, 2022, 12:43:18 PM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.       
This is what Cliff Ammerman is quoted as saying in "DB Cooper and Flight 305" by Dr. Robert Edwards (p. 91 - 95):

"I was working sectors 4 (R4) and 5 (R5) combined. Sector 4 covered from Malay Intersection (now Malay) to the Portland, Oregon airport from the surface up to 23,000 feet. Sector 5 covered from the Portland, Oregon airport to Eugene, Oregon from 10,000 to 23,000 feet. The two sectors were combined because of light traffic due to the stormy conditions."

Later he is quoted:

"I had voice communication with NWA 305 from about Toledo, Washington until some distance north of Eugene, Oregon."

I have been discussing this issue with Dr. Edwards, and he confirms that Cliff Ammerman made no statements to him about incorrect frequencies, 305 being handed off to the wrong controller, or him handing 305 off to R6.

I agree with R99 that Ammerman's newest account of that evening has numerous red flags that require more fact-checking. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 12:44:54 PM by Chaucer »
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Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8067 on: August 17, 2022, 01:24:25 PM »
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I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today). 
I have looked on Sluggo's site for these low atltude maps, but I can't locate them. Did he post them publicly?
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8068 on: August 17, 2022, 01:48:36 PM »
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I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today). 
I have looked on Sluggo's site for these low atltude maps, but I can't locate them. Did he post them publicly?

Did you explore the "Other Evidence" section?  If you go to that page and scroll down, there are Aeronautical Charts broken up by section, for example:
Seattle Sectional North, Seattle Sectional South and so forth....

.....all the way toward the bottom:

"L-1 Side of the United States Government Flight Information Publication “Enroute Low Altitude – U. S.”
This is a JPEG of the chart supplied to Flight 305 while on the ground at SEA. The effective date is: 11 NOV 1971 to 09 DEC 1971.
 This chart was made possible by the hard work and generosity of Robert Nicholson. Robert is truly a “Friend-of-the-Site
.”
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 01:51:10 PM by JAG »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8069 on: August 17, 2022, 02:55:24 PM »
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I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today). 
I have looked on Sluggo's site for these low atltude maps, but I can't locate them. Did he post them publicly?

Did you explore the "Other Evidence" section?  If you go to that page and scroll down, there are Aeronautical Charts broken up by section, for example:
Seattle Sectional North, Seattle Sectional South and so forth....

.....all the way toward the bottom:

"L-1 Side of the United States Government Flight Information Publication “Enroute Low Altitude – U. S.”
This is a JPEG of the chart supplied to Flight 305 while on the ground at SEA. The effective date is: 11 NOV 1971 to 09 DEC 1971.
 This chart was made possible by the hard work and generosity of Robert Nicholson. Robert is truly a “Friend-of-the-Site
.”

To amplify a bit further on these IFR charts.  In 1971, airliners were required to operate on IFR flight plans even if there wasn't a cloud in the sky.  This requirement was made after the mid-air collision of two airliners in Utah I believe it was.  Consequently, both Scott and Rataczak would have the Low and High Altitude IFR charts in their flight bag.  Anderson probably had the same charts in his flight bag since he was also a rated co-pilot but also had a flight engineer rating for the 727 and was acting in that capacity on the hijacked flight.

The IFR and airport approach charts come in a couple of versions but with the same basic information.  The FAA version is the one I obtained and is on Sluggo's site and the WSHM site.  The Jeppesen Company, which is now owned by Boeing, publishes its own version of those charts and approach plates.  The Jeppesen plates are the ones generally favored by airline crews and civilian pilots (including me).  I am not really up to date on Jeppesen's coverage but it appears to be global at this time.