Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.4%)
50% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (37.9%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 723801 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7965 on: July 31, 2022, 07:19:49 PM »
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Done a few dozen radio jumps sometimes carrying asymmetrical leg bags of various sizes, some big, some small. I stand by my earlier remarks. You can feel it. You have to compensate to stay stable.

Like I said before, I have nothing but respect and good regard for you, sir. I don't recall seeing your original remarks about the radios, but the intent of my response to R99's comment was supposed to be along the lines of that my guess was that your reaction was more 'yes I noticed it and had to compensate' as opposed to 'it threatened to throw me out of control and I was lucky to remain stable'. Otherwise you probably wouldn't have done it so many times, haha.


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I got in some incredibly chaotic tumbles that I couldn’t stop. I was taught to pull in that situation and of course that’s what I did.

I tell my students that line stretch will get you stable much more efficiently than impact.


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When I learned freefall there were no tandem jumps, no jumpmasters holding onto you in freefall, you were basically on your own and had to figure it out.

Me too. I started in '79 and also went through a static-line progression on rounds. I had no desire to be a static-line instructor. When AFF came along in the mid-80's, I remember thinking that that looked like fun, I'd probably do that. In the summer of 90 the course came to Perris so I took it and got an AFF rating when Don Yahrling was still the only guy on the planet who could give you one. Fell in love with it, still do it, taught an FJC yesterday. I had no desire whatsoever to do tandems, but it soon became apparent that tandems are 90 percent of the customers at a skydiving school, so I reluctantly got a tandem rating. Surprisingly, I fell in love with that, too. It's a great instructional tool. But, most of the people are just looking for the carnival ride, so, shrug, that's what we give them. But... BUT... Once in a while you get somebody who has a very special reason for being there, they're using the experience  to celebrate, mark in time, or get respite from something very very personal to them. I have memories of certain tandems and the people involved that still bring a lump to my throat. Being able to do that for people is a privilege that I will never take lightly.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 07:55:48 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7966 on: July 31, 2022, 09:56:23 PM »
“I tell my students that line stretch will get you stable much more efficiently than impact.“

Great way to put it Dudeman. I always read your posts and enjoy them a lot. I guess I hadn’t realized how long you’ve been in the sport.

Being a lawyer I never wanted the liability exposure that comes with instructing or hauling tandem cargo. But much respect for those who serve in those positions. Without them skydiving would have largely disappeared years ago.

As for BASE jumping, my participation will remain as a YouTube viewer.

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Offline Olemisscub

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7967 on: August 02, 2022, 01:37:44 AM »
Batch 60. Page 132. Which passenger is this allegedly supposed to be? Is this guy making this up? It seems like it's some sort of a court case. Of course he gets where Cooper was sitting wrong right off the bat, but memory is a weird thing. He seems to be referring to the Cowboy at one point. He says "there was an obnoxious drunk on the plane".

 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7968 on: August 03, 2022, 11:08:39 AM »
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Batch 60. Page 132. Which passenger is this allegedly supposed to be? Is this guy making this up? It seems like it's some sort of a court case. Of course he gets where Cooper was sitting wrong right off the bat, but memory is a weird thing. He seems to be referring to the Cowboy at one point. He says "there was an obnoxious drunk on the plane".



I read the 302 and it is a little weird. However, if it is true, then he may have been referring to the left side of the cabin as he was looking at it from the front.  In hindsight the questions and answers on the 302s should probably have used port and starboard instead of left/right.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7969 on: August 06, 2022, 09:39:26 PM »
Eric Ulis recently conducted an Facebook Live interview with former Special Agent Larry Carr. They covered a lot of ground, but one thing stuck out to me.

The FBI drop zone was developed by Paul Soderlind who used various bits of information such as the Air Force radar, flight data recorder information, and of course, the “NWA logs”. It has been implied that Soderlind was audio recording the phone patch communication between the crew of Flight 305 and himself, and that those recordings were then converted into a transcript - the aforementioned “NWA logs”. Some have suggested that within those transcripts is Rataczak’s alleged communication to NWA Flight Ops indicating that “Mark it on your shrimp boats. Our friend has taken leave of us”. These would supposedly have been turned over to the FBI.

Larry Carr refutes this notion.

Here is Eric’s question (shortened for clarity and brevity) and Larry’s complete answer:

EU:  The one thing that is missing [from the 302s] is the communication between the pilots and Northwest Orient Flight Operations in Minneapolis - specifically Paul Soderlind. That actual communication stuff is not out there. The Harrison notes are there, but the actual transcript of that communication going back and forth, the raw transcript, the actual words, we’ve haven’t seen anything like that yet.

LC: Yeah, there was no, um, there was no transcript like ATC with Northwest. It was just handwritten notes. But [the notes[ were pretty detailed as I recall.


So, if an audio recording or transcripts of communication between the crew and Flight Ops existed, it was not shared with the FBI, and it seems unlikely it will be shared with the public. It would also seem unlikely that Rataczak would instruct Donald Nyrop or Paul Soderlind to mark it on their radar since it’s likely they not in front of a radar reading of the Pacific Northwest while sitting in an office in Minneapolis. This seems more likely something Rataczak would say to ATC; however, we have the pertinent transcripts of communication with 305 and ATC.

So, perhaps there is another explanation, but I’m at a loss for one at the moment.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7970 on: August 06, 2022, 11:06:45 PM »
For clarity, the notes Larry is referring to are the Harrison notes.

Also, from Larry Carr on the DZ years ago:

"The concrete time of the jump was based on the crew's communication with NWA flight operations. NWA flight operations was keeping a running log documenting each communication noting the time. I did a re-read of the NWA log, tower transmission and the flight crew interviews and discovered when the crew felt the pressure variance they were not on the phone with NWA. They called just after to report the incident. The person keeping the log must have not written the time he received the communication but the time the crew thought they felt the bump."

So, if the “mark it on your shrimp boats” remark was made by Rataczak it would have to be to ATC. But according to Larry, all relevant and pertinent transcripts of ATC communication has been public.

This begs the question of where is this remark recorded? Is Carr simply wrong and there are missing portions of the transcript from the 8:05 to 8:20 time frame that we aren’t aware of? Or is Rataczak making it up? It would seem that in the absence of any documented evidence, we have to ignore Rataczak’s claim.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7971 on: August 06, 2022, 11:16:19 PM »
Here is a trancription from the 302s from which the 8:11 jump time and drop zone were formulated by Soderlind according to the FBI.



No reference to “shrimp boats” or “taken leave of us”.

Also, none of this quotation is found in ATC. Why? Seems more likely it was from phone patch with Flight Ops.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7972 on: August 06, 2022, 11:33:00 PM »
That phrase “taken leave of us” does occur after 305 lands in Reno at 2313:

“OKAY SIR BE ADVISED THAT AH WE APPARENTLY AH OUR PASSENGER TOOK LEAVE OF US SOMEWHERE UH BETWEEN HERE AND SEATTLE ..." 

Also occurs in the ATC transcript shortly thereafter when the crew says they are about to “take leave of the aircraft”.

Since Rataczak was pilot flying, Scott was likely pilot monitoring meaning it was likely Scott and not Rataczak who actually said those words, but we can’t confirm that.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7973 on: August 07, 2022, 12:52:49 AM »
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That phrase “taken leave of us” does occur after 305 lands in Reno at 2313:

“OKAY SIR BE ADVISED THAT AH WE APPARENTLY AH OUR PASSENGER TOOK LEAVE OF US SOMEWHERE UH BETWEEN HERE AND SEATTLE ..." 

Also occurs in the ATC transcript shortly thereafter when the crew says they are about to “take leave of the aircraft”.

Since Rataczak was pilot flying, Scott was likely pilot monitoring meaning it was likely Scott and not Rataczak who actually said those words, but we can’t confirm that.

Chaucer, with reference to your last several posts, you need to take a look at FlyJack post #57481 on DropZone.  FlyJack states that this post (from Part 65, pages 121-122) by the FBI on 11-26-1971 (two days after the hijacking) is Sunderlind's notes taken during the hijacking. These notes have recently been discussed here and on DropZone.

To summarize, Sunderlind says that Cooper jumped no later than 8:12 PM PST and at a point about 15 miles north of the Columbia River (as it flows east to west in the Portland International Airport area.  This eliminates the theories that Cooper jumped at a later time or south of the Columbia River.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7974 on: August 07, 2022, 12:29:00 PM »
I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7975 on: August 07, 2022, 02:28:25 PM »
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I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.

You need to ask Carr if he was referring to the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The WSHM had a roll of the ARINC teletype transcripts as part of the Harrison papers.  The WSHM digital team did a study of those transcripts and concluded that there had been a number of deletions from that roll that were pertinent to the hijacking.  Carr's statement apparently supports their conclusions.  I suggest that you get in touch with that digital team and perhaps they will provide you with a copy of their study.  You will find it interesting.

The deletions from the ARINC teletype transcripts and the deletions from the Seattle ATC communications with the airliner does indeed mean that we only have "half of the evidence".

The meaning of FlyJack's post was also discussed here several days ago.  You apparently missed it.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7976 on: August 07, 2022, 03:02:21 PM »
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I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.

You need to ask Carr if he was referring to the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The WSHM had a roll of the ARINC teletype transcripts as part of the Harrison papers.  The WSHM digital team did a study of those transcripts and concluded that there had been a number of deletions from that roll that were pertinent to the hijacking.  Carr's statement apparently supports their conclusions.  I suggest that you get in touch with that digital team and perhaps they will provide you with a copy of their study.  You will find it interesting.

The deletions from the ARINC teletype transcripts and the deletions from the Seattle ATC communications with the airliner does indeed mean that we only have "half of the evidence".

The meaning of FlyJack's post was also discussed here several days ago.  You apparently missed it.
Larry was apparently referring to a previously undocumented audio recording and subsequent transcript of phone patch communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations. However, he also seemed to confuse the Harrison notes and the Soderlind notes. He also said that in his reading of the phone patch transcript there was no smoking gun and nothing that added to or contradicted from what is already known in the 302s.

Not sure how to digest all of that, but there it is.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7977 on: August 07, 2022, 04:22:11 PM »
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I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.

You need to ask Carr if he was referring to the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The WSHM had a roll of the ARINC teletype transcripts as part of the Harrison papers.  The WSHM digital team did a study of those transcripts and concluded that there had been a number of deletions from that roll that were pertinent to the hijacking.  Carr's statement apparently supports their conclusions.  I suggest that you get in touch with that digital team and perhaps they will provide you with a copy of their study.  You will find it interesting.

The deletions from the ARINC teletype transcripts and the deletions from the Seattle ATC communications with the airliner does indeed mean that we only have "half of the evidence".

The meaning of FlyJack's post was also discussed here several days ago.  You apparently missed it.
Larry was apparently referring to a previously undocumented audio recording and subsequent transcript of phone patch communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations. However, he also seemed to confuse the Harrison notes and the Soderlind notes. He also said that in his reading of the phone patch transcript there was no smoking gun and nothing that added to or contradicted from what is already known in the 302s.

Not sure how to digest all of that, but there it is.

Chaucer, since you are the co-administrator of this site, I suggest that you contact Fred Poynter at the WSHM and ask him if he will provide you with a copy of his group's analysis, as described above, and for permission to post it on this site.  It will add to the understanding of the communications situation with the airliner.

How are things going with the current python harvesting event in the Everglades? 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7978 on: August 07, 2022, 05:50:29 PM »
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I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.

You need to ask Carr if he was referring to the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The WSHM had a roll of the ARINC teletype transcripts as part of the Harrison papers.  The WSHM digital team did a study of those transcripts and concluded that there had been a number of deletions from that roll that were pertinent to the hijacking.  Carr's statement apparently supports their conclusions.  I suggest that you get in touch with that digital team and perhaps they will provide you with a copy of their study.  You will find it interesting.

The deletions from the ARINC teletype transcripts and the deletions from the Seattle ATC communications with the airliner does indeed mean that we only have "half of the evidence".

The meaning of FlyJack's post was also discussed here several days ago.  You apparently missed it.
Larry was apparently referring to a previously undocumented audio recording and subsequent transcript of phone patch communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations. However, he also seemed to confuse the Harrison notes and the Soderlind notes. He also said that in his reading of the phone patch transcript there was no smoking gun and nothing that added to or contradicted from what is already known in the 302s.

Not sure how to digest all of that, but there it is.

Chaucer, since you are the co-administrator of this site, I suggest that you contact Fred Poynter at the WSHM and ask him if he will provide you with a copy of his group's analysis, as described above, and for permission to post it on this site.  It will add to the understanding of the communications situation with the airliner.

How are things going with the current python harvesting event in the Everglades?
I'll take you up on that suggestion re: Poynter, Robert. Thank you.

I have hunted pythons in the Everglades in the past, but those days are in the rearview. Didn't get any snakes, but I get a lot of stories!
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7979 on: August 08, 2022, 08:16:38 AM »
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I don’t participate in that forum, so I don’t know what you’re referring to. You’re welcome to post it here.

That said, it might be a moot point because in speaking with Larry Carr directly, he told me that a transcript - not notes - of the conversation between the crew of 305 and NWA Flight Ops DOES exist.

So, at this point, who knows what to believe? Seems sometimes we are making educated guesses based on half the evidence.

You need to ask Carr if he was referring to the ARINC teletype transcripts.  The WSHM had a roll of the ARINC teletype transcripts as part of the Harrison papers.  The WSHM digital team did a study of those transcripts and concluded that there had been a number of deletions from that roll that were pertinent to the hijacking.  Carr's statement apparently supports their conclusions.  I suggest that you get in touch with that digital team and perhaps they will provide you with a copy of their study.  You will find it interesting.

The deletions from the ARINC teletype transcripts and the deletions from the Seattle ATC communications with the airliner does indeed mean that we only have "half of the evidence".

The meaning of FlyJack's post was also discussed here several days ago.  You apparently missed it.
Larry was apparently referring to a previously undocumented audio recording and subsequent transcript of phone patch communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations. However, he also seemed to confuse the Harrison notes and the Soderlind notes. He also said that in his reading of the phone patch transcript there was no smoking gun and nothing that added to or contradicted from what is already known in the 302s.

Not sure how to digest all of that, but there it is.

Chaucer, since you are the co-administrator of this site, I suggest that you contact Fred Poynter at the WSHM and ask him if he will provide you with a copy of his group's analysis, as described above, and for permission to post it on this site.  It will add to the understanding of the communications situation with the airliner.

How are things going with the current python harvesting event in the Everglades?
I'll take you up on that suggestion re: Poynter, Robert. Thank you.

I have hunted pythons in the Everglades in the past, but those days are in the rearview. Didn't get any snakes, but I get a lot of stories!
It seems as though they have thinned the heard a bit down there in the everglades?  They have used trackers and such to get rid of them.  Good news I hope for endangered species like the Florida Panther