Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.4%)
50% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (37.9%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 723823 times)

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Thanked: 219 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7590 on: November 16, 2021, 10:40:32 PM »
Thanks, dudeman. Good stuff as always and very appreciated.

Here is the thing that sticks in my craw. For years, we thought Cooper jumped with an NB-6/8 military chute and left the more modern sport chute behind ("Volkswagen vs. Cadillac" per Cossey). Now with the revelation that Cooper didn't jump with a Navy bailout rig and canopy, we know he actually jumped with the same type of chute left on the plane after all.

All this time, people were debating whether the hardier military chute was best or the more sophisticated sport chute was the right choice. Miles of message board threads were devoted to this debate. Now that this debate seems moot, it appears like both sides are like "Well, it didn't really matter what he jumped with as long as he pulled the cord." If this entire debate boiled down this detail, then why did we spend countless hours debating the merit or lack thereof of Cooper's parachute choice?

Or am I, as you pointed out previously, over-thinking this?
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7591 on: November 16, 2021, 11:21:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks, dudeman. Good stuff as always and very appreciated.

Here is the thing that sticks in my craw. For years, we thought Cooper jumped with an NB-6/8 military chute and left the more modern sport chute behind ("Volkswagen vs. Cadillac" per Cossey). Now with the revelation that Cooper didn't jump with a Navy bailout rig and canopy, we know he actually jumped with the same type of chute left on the plane after all.

All this time, people were debating whether the hardier military chute was best or the more sophisticated sport chute was the right choice. Miles of message board threads were devoted to this debate. Now that this debate seems moot, it appears like both sides are like "Well, it didn't really matter what he jumped with as long as he pulled the cord." If this entire debate boiled down this detail, then why did we spend countless hours debating the merit or lack thereof of Cooper's parachute choice?

Or am I, as you pointed out previously, over-thinking this?

The conclusion seems obvious: forum Coopers will run with false info - forever! 10:1 today's discussion will pass and the same old debate will resurface all over again for another 20 year run! Hmmm.  :-X   The current discussion never happened. Same for chutes coming from McChord. and on and on it goes...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 11:23:03 PM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: fcastle866

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
  • Thanked: 96 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7592 on: November 17, 2021, 06:13:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks, dudeman. Good stuff as always and very appreciated.

Here is the thing that sticks in my craw. For years, we thought Cooper jumped with an NB-6/8 military chute and left the more modern sport chute behind ("Volkswagen vs. Cadillac" per Cossey). Now with the revelation that Cooper didn't jump with a Navy bailout rig and canopy, we know he actually jumped with the same type of chute left on the plane after all.

All this time, people were debating whether the hardier military chute was best or the more sophisticated sport chute was the right choice. Miles of message board threads were devoted to this debate. Now that this debate seems moot, it appears like both sides are like "Well, it didn't really matter what he jumped with as long as he pulled the cord." If this entire debate boiled down this detail, then why did we spend countless hours debating the merit or lack thereof of Cooper's parachute choice?

Or am I, as you pointed out previously, over-thinking this?


I think I wasn't around for a lot of the earlier debates. And people are going to keep re-thinking and speculating all the angles because there isn't a whole lot of 'new' to go on, and that's how new angles of exploration happen.

Georger, and I say this in good-natured jest, but do you drink? How did you get to be so cynical? Would you rather interest in the case die out? You keep logging in yourself...

Anyway, this is how I see the parachute jump angle... Any of the rigs mentioned as possibilities are basic backpack rigs with a readily apparent ripcord handle. That Cooper discounted the directions and seemed familiar with how to put it on indicates that he was at least nominally familiar with them, even if he had never actually jumped. Certainly any further experience would help him, but starting with that... Whatever rig he has on, and however he attaches the money, he goes for it. My experience with first-time jumpers (over thirty years of instructing in over forty years of jumping) suggests that if he has it in him to plan and actually go through with this caper, then he most likely has it in him to pull the ripcord handle. With any of the possible rigs, but especially with the rigger-packed, reserve-design of a bailout rig, if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy, whether he's stable or not. So my guess is that he at least gets this far. But now is where chute choice and possible experience comes in. If he has a controllable canopy with some drive and steerability, and he knows how to use it, that would greatly increase his chances of getting into a decent landing area. A flat open field and a decent PLF, and he's good to go. But if he's got a non-steerable canopy, then he's literally at the mercy of luck and the winds. If he lands in water, he has a problem. If he ends up stuck in a tall tree with no easy way down, or if he lands in rocks/boulders, on a hillside, then he stands a decent chance of being injured. To me, that's his biggest threat, and it is a very real one. If he's too injured to hike out... Does he bleed out, does he eventually succumb to the elements, is he eaten by bear, wolf or bobcat? That would be the question.

And I can not fully discount the possibility that he was found. A couple hunters come across him, decide to keep the money, bury everything else, and keep their mouths shut? Maybe far-fetched, but certainly possible.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812, fcastle866, Robert99

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7593 on: November 17, 2021, 07:36:46 PM »
saw this AI contest. Made me laugh thinking how if AI gets better at filtering toxicity, humans will just adapt to outwit the toxicity filters.
Here's an example.
If I say "Carr is a car"
Hopefully I don't get banned for that.

....

The definition of a toxic comment on the Internet is subjective. Each individual may have their own bar set differently. But which comment is truly worse? Can you help determine the ‘severity’ of a comment?

In this competition, Jigsaw returns to the discussions from Wikipedia Talk pages. You will score a set of about fourteen thousand comments. Your scores will be compared to human rankings performed on comment pairs. In this way, the focus is on the severity of comment toxicity — from innocuous to outrageous, where the middle matters as much as the extremes.

Total Prizes:
$50,000

 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 07:37:42 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7594 on: November 17, 2021, 07:42:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks, dudeman. Good stuff as always and very appreciated.

Here is the thing that sticks in my craw. For years, we thought Cooper jumped with an NB-6/8 military chute and left the more modern sport chute behind ("Volkswagen vs. Cadillac" per Cossey). Now with the revelation that Cooper didn't jump with a Navy bailout rig and canopy, we know he actually jumped with the same type of chute left on the plane after all.

All this time, people were debating whether the hardier military chute was best or the more sophisticated sport chute was the right choice. Miles of message board threads were devoted to this debate. Now that this debate seems moot, it appears like both sides are like "Well, it didn't really matter what he jumped with as long as he pulled the cord." If this entire debate boiled down this detail, then why did we spend countless hours debating the merit or lack thereof of Cooper's parachute choice?

Or am I, as you pointed out previously, over-thinking this?


I think I wasn't around for a lot of the earlier debates. And people are going to keep re-thinking and speculating all the angles because there isn't a whole lot of 'new' to go on, and that's how new angles of exploration happen.

Georger, and I say this in good-natured jest, but do you drink? How did you get to be so cynical? Would you rather interest in the case die out? You keep logging in yourself...

Anyway, this is how I see the parachute jump angle... Any of the rigs mentioned as possibilities are basic backpack rigs with a readily apparent ripcord handle. That Cooper discounted the directions and seemed familiar with how to put it on indicates that he was at least nominally familiar with them, even if he had never actually jumped. Certainly any further experience would help him, but starting with that... Whatever rig he has on, and however he attaches the money, he goes for it. My experience with first-time jumpers (over thirty years of instructing in over forty years of jumping) suggests that if he has it in him to plan and actually go through with this caper, then he most likely has it in him to pull the ripcord handle. With any of the possible rigs, but especially with the rigger-packed, reserve-design of a bailout rig, if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy, whether he's stable or not. So my guess is that he at least gets this far. But now is where chute choice and possible experience comes in. If he has a controllable canopy with some drive and steerability, and he knows how to use it, that would greatly increase his chances of getting into a decent landing area. A flat open field and a decent PLF, and he's good to go. But if he's got a non-steerable canopy, then he's literally at the mercy of luck and the winds. If he lands in water, he has a problem. If he ends up stuck in a tall tree with no easy way down, or if he lands in rocks/boulders, on a hillside, then he stands a decent chance of being injured. To me, that's his biggest threat, and it is a very real one. If he's too injured to hike out... Does he bleed out, does he eventually succumb to the elements, is he eaten by bear, wolf or bobcat? That would be the question.

And I can not fully discount the possibility that he was found. A couple hunters come across him, decide to keep the money, bury everything else, and keep their mouths shut? Maybe far-fetched, but certainly possible.

All this "stuff" and the pedantic nature of Edwards' book, made me ponder how Cooper probably spent a smaller percentage of time, comparatively, thinking about all this "stuff".
I mean think about typical human lives and decisions. How much time is put into each decision. Not much really.
Cooper probably mostly went on an overall feel.
Sure the motivation may have took a while to develop, and some details thought through.
But in the end, in a crazy endeavor, you have to embrace a bit of "go for it", and be willing to live with the outcome.

If the odds are basically 1 in 6 (5 in 6 if you look to the upside) in the game of russian roulette, the important thing is gearing up your mind to pull the trigger, not debate whether the odds are exactly the same for all revolvers (example: a particular revolver might have a low rate failure mechanism where it misfires and you live. Do you care about that detail? It affects the outcome, statistically, but you're unlikely to fold that into your 70.3333% prediction :))
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 07:45:00 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Thanked: 219 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7595 on: November 17, 2021, 09:24:44 PM »
I’ll fully admit that I am not an expert on parachutes or skydiving, but it seems like a foolhardy risk that DBC was taking.

Imagine if the chutes that the FBI delivered were not hardy C9 ripstop canopies? Imagine with they delivered some surplus 24” twill canopies or sport chutes that had a 125mp limit? He checks the packing cards and realizes these aren’t the right chutes for the job. Then what? He demands new chutes? Delay his departure? Jump anyway and risk his life?

Again, the whole parachute question seems like a seat-of-his-pants crapshoot.

But, as I said, I’m not expert.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7596 on: November 17, 2021, 10:54:49 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I’ll fully admit that I am not an expert on parachutes or skydiving, but it seems like a foolhardy risk that DBC was taking.

Imagine if the chutes that the FBI delivered were not hardy C9 ripstop canopies? Imagine with they delivered some surplus 24” twill canopies or sport chutes that had a 125mp limit? He checks the packing cards and realizes these aren’t the right chutes for the job. Then what? He demands new chutes? Delay his departure? Jump anyway and risk his life?

Again, the whole parachute question seems like a seat-of-his-pants crapshoot.

But, as I said, I’m not expert.

You don't understand bureaucracies
Everyone involved that night, actually enjoyed that they were part of a high risk/high energy situation.
Cooper just milked the bureaucracy's way of handling emergencies.
Of course he was going to get good parachutes.
It would take an individual with some balls to stand up and say "No, we're giving Cooper shit parachutes. It's my decision"
No way that would happen.

Here's what Cooper really should have had for backup...A Swedish K in the briefcase. :)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Thanked: 219 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7597 on: November 18, 2021, 12:03:40 AM »
That’s what they did to McNally. They gave him shitty surplus reserve chutes.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7598 on: November 18, 2021, 01:16:23 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That’s what they did to McNally. They gave him shitty surplus reserve chutes.

well, your initial thesis is about super-planning beforehand, in terms of what's critical
remember all the talk about Cooper and jump boots and stuff like that, and night jump?
McNally jumped at 3AM

The FBI got the $500,000 together that he asked for. He asked for 5 parachutes and 2 harnesses. Did he get all of that (along with shovel?)

His secret 2nd pair of clothes under his "disguise" ..a collared blue t-shirt :)

"Finally alone after eleven hours of feverish demands, threats and hostage exchanges, the hijacker pulled off his shaggy brown wig and began to disrobe. He shrugged out of a burgundy sport coat, white dress shirt and yellow trousers — it was, after all, 1972 — revealing a second outfit: a set of dark-colored slacks and a collared blue t-shirt. Upon surveying the rows of empty seats running the length of the Boeing 727, he checked his wristwatch. Only a few hours remained until sunrise."

So funny that the police chief gave him a ride on the ground...and stayed at a motel that was also lodging for half-dozen FBI agents.

An hour and a half later, one car stopped short about a quarter-mile down the road. In the driver's seat was Richard Blair, the police chief of Peru, Indiana. Chief Blair had been driving back to Peru with his wife, and the sight of a lone pedestrian on the road so late at night tugged his interest.

McNally introduced himself as Patrick McNally (his older brother's name) and displayed a Michigan driver's license (a forgery) that corroborated the ID. Though McNally's two credit cards were issued to a "J. McNally," he explained to the chief that he had borrowed the cards — with permission — from his brother.

The chief asked McNally what he was doing out on a country road after 9 p.m.

McNally claimed he had recently traveled to Peru from Detroit on a mission to retrieve his brother from a nearby farm. Alas, McNally continued, his brother had gotten drunk earlier that night and beaten the snot out of him, leaving McNally in this sorry state.

..
On Sunday, McNally paid for another day in the motel, and made another call to Detroit. Still no answer. He was getting worried: Along with the bruised hijacker, the motel also served as lodging for a half-dozen FBI agents who were in the process of hunting him down. On his way downstairs, McNally passed two agents walking to a different floor; they were oblivious now, McNally thought, but how long could that last? He really had to get out of Peru.

from good account of McNally's excellent adventure (and details about alll of the escape saga with Trapnell)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Thanked: 219 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7599 on: November 18, 2021, 12:09:28 PM »
I’m very familiar with the McNally case. My point was that Cooper didn’t know what type of chutes would be provided to him. He couldn’t guarantee appropriate chutes anymore than McNally could.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Thanked: 433 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7600 on: November 18, 2021, 02:34:35 PM »
Hey Vortechies, how about the YIG industry as a source of Yttrium? Might some YIG devices employ pure Titanium?

YIG, Yttrium, Iron, Garnet. Used in sphere form to make oscillators, filters, limiters and other electronic devices.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Snow? George’s? Tom? Others?

377




« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 02:35:02 PM by 377 »
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4353
  • Thanked: 456 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7601 on: November 18, 2021, 03:46:42 PM »
Vortechies? Shouldn't that be Vortexites? Or Vortecies? Just asking...
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Thanked: 433 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7602 on: November 18, 2021, 05:11:05 PM »
Pick any title you wish. I’ll abide by it. After all Bruce, you are the MAYOR.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4353
  • Thanked: 456 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7603 on: November 18, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
But I do not rule by fiat!

Darren? Any suggestions, grammatical or otherwise?
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7604 on: November 18, 2021, 05:40:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I’m very familiar with the McNally case. My point was that Cooper didn’t know what type of chutes would be provided to him. He couldn’t guarantee appropriate chutes anymore than McNally could.

so it seems like it's not important.
you're making up a case for it being important.
in no hijacking case where parachutes were supplied, did it matter.
They were always used and functioned.

Seems like you're making up thoughts about the reliablity of tires, when I order a car for my getaway from the bank, with my swedish-k pointed at a teller's head.
you'd ask "Hmm didn't snowmman think thru the probability of getting worn tires that might get a flat? Why didn't he ask for no-flat tires, in case they shot out his tires or a nail in the road? At least ask for a can of tire flat fix-it"