Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1408454 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7560 on: November 15, 2021, 06:42:25 PM »
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When informed of the hijacker's demands for parachutes, the NWA personnel at SEATAC contacted someone they knew at Boeing Field and someone at Boeing Field contacted Hayden.  Hayden sent both of his backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi and the people at Boeing Field got them to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or personal car.


That's not what Norman Hayden told me. You have additional sources to corroborate this scenario?

It's interesting how we all have to pick and choose what we believe is accurate from various files.
For example, I could show (like I posted) that the FBI knew it had a NB6 in it's basement all along, and that it was impossible for Cooper to jump with the NB6 because they had it. Yet they promoted that story (with Cossey who was in on the conspiracy), to hide the fact that Cooper was an FBI agent testing the response to hijackings.

:)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 06:43:14 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7561 on: November 15, 2021, 07:52:45 PM »
I don’t think the McChord chutes are insignificant.

First, it is an overlooked mystery why DBC was not more specific with the chutes he demanded. He only said “two front chutes and two back chutes”. He had no idea what type rigs he was getting, from where they were coming, or who packed them. The chutes were the key to his plan. No chutes and he was cooked. So why be so nonchalant about the key to his escape when he was so particular about other details? The 302s indicate that DBC expected the chutes to come from McChord. To me, this signals someone who is not knowledgeable about this aspect. McChord is an Air Force base. They don’t have paratroopers, and their bailout rigs (BA-18/22/25 series) were automatic deployment and not manual ripcord.

Did DBC not know this? If not, it’s an egregious oversight, and indicates someone with limited knowledge of parachutes, IMO.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7562 on: November 15, 2021, 09:15:57 PM »
Here is some clarification:

If DBC had received chutes from McChord, they almost certainly would have been BA series emergency rigs - probably BA-18 or BA-22.

The BA-18 came into service in 1958, and the BA-22 came into use in 1968. They are virtually identical except for the ripcord knob. They were issued to every non-jumping jumpmaster, onboard safety personnel, and crew of various jets including the B-66 light bomber and F-101 and 105 fighters. The BA utilized a standard military C9 canopy.

They worked on a 1 to 13 second automatic deployment after pulling the “red arming cable knob”. They were not triggered by altitude. Jumpers could also override the time delay by pulling a T-shaped “blast handle”. There was also a “zero-delay lanyard” that was to be used at altitudes of less than 8000 feet.

I have attached a picture of a BA series rig below. Note the sage green color.

All that said, I don’t think DBC was given USAF chutes. However, RH said he specifically requested chutes from McChord. The 302s make it clear he expected the chutes to be from McChord. Nevertheless, multiple media reports at the time state that Cooper was offered USAF chutes and rejected them. An article from the New York Times states:

“Two military models were found at McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma and rushed to the Seattle field. When the hijacker learned that military models were being supplied, he demanded that sport models be made available instead. These were found at a nearby airfield used by sky divers.”

So, is Himms wrong? Is the NYT’s mistaken? Are the 302s inaccurate?

My point is that in addition to asking what chutes Cooper used, we should also be asking what chutes he wanted and expected, and why?

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7563 on: November 15, 2021, 09:37:57 PM »
You're asking good questions, Chaucer.

Can you refresh my memory of those 302s you mention that cite Cooper wanted/expected chutes from McChord.

Is Himms wrong? Often times, yes, such as placing DBC in seat 18C. Is the NYT wrong? Sounds like it. Can the 302s be inaccurate (or misleading?) Yup. But that shouldn't stop us from considering their information. To me, it comes down to discernment and weighing the evidence.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 09:39:48 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7564 on: November 15, 2021, 10:00:32 PM »
the picture chaucer included is from this page
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good deal of info there from folks on all the issues/history of those type rigs

My reading is that they had a zero-delay lanyard for low-altitude ejections?

interestingly, these rigs had PLD, Personnel Lowering Devices, so you could descend out of trees. (webbing with something like a rappel device, to slide down the webbing. see this post at dropzone.com
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 10:01:08 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7565 on: November 15, 2021, 10:21:59 PM »
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the picture chaucer included is from this page
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good deal of info there from folks on all the issues/history of those type rigs

My reading is that they had a zero-delay lanyard for low-altitude ejections?

interestingly, these rigs had PLD, Personnel Lowering Devices, so you could descend out of trees. (webbing with something like a rappel device, to slide down the webbing. see this post at dropzone.com
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Indeed. Much of my info on the BA series came from that website.

And yes, the zero-delay lanyard was to be used for deployments at less than 8000 feet.
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7566 on: November 15, 2021, 10:45:23 PM »
I haven't read through that page yet, but it's interesting to see blast handles on those rigs. They were used for a while on some sport rigs for reserve ripcord handles, but they caused problems. They mounted / clipped on to the end of the ripcord housing. If you didn't pull it straight, that is if there was any angle to the the pull, they sometimes didn't want to come off of the housing, and caused a hard pull. That resulted in a number of 'no-pull' fatalities (after cutting away from a malfunctioned main), and they were ultimately banned for sport use. I have one in my closet somewhere, I was going to have it made into a stickshift knob for my car, but I never did.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 10:53:23 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7567 on: November 15, 2021, 10:56:28 PM »
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the picture chaucer included is from this page
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good deal of info there from folks on all the issues/history of those type rigs

My reading is that they had a zero-delay lanyard for low-altitude ejections?

interestingly, these rigs had PLD, Personnel Lowering Devices, so you could descend out of trees. (webbing with something like a rappel device, to slide down the webbing. see this post at dropzone.com
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Indeed. Much of my info on the BA series came from that website.

And yes, the zero-delay lanyard was to be used for deployments at less than 8000 feet.

A zero-delay lanyard?  Where did this come from?  I have never heard of such a thing.  If you are referring to that green knob, that is the usual color and type knob for manually activating the emergency bail-out oxygen bottle.

As stated before, today's emergency ejections are usually all automatic from the time the pilot ejects until the parachute automatically opens.

Bruce, you need to read your interview with Hayden again and the other online information about how the backpacks got from Hayden to SEATAC.  This has been discussed at length for several years both on this site and on DZ.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 10:59:18 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7568 on: November 15, 2021, 10:59:33 PM »
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I haven't read through that page yet, but it's interesting to see blast handles on those rigs. They were used for a while on some sport rigs for reserve ripcord handles, but they caused problems. They mounted / clipped on to the end of the ripcord housing. If you didn't pull it straight, that is if there was any angle to the the pull, they sometimes didn't want to come off of the housing, and caused a hard pull. That resulted in a number of 'no-pull' fatalities (after cutting away from a malfunctioned main), and they were ultimately banned for sport use. I have one in my closet somewhere, I was going to have it made into a stickshift knob for my car, but I never did.
As layman with no expertise in parachutes, my impression of these BA rigs is that they were very complicated with a lot of moving parts. It wasn’t a simple “pull and deploy” mechanism.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7569 on: November 15, 2021, 11:07:49 PM »
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You're asking good questions, Chaucer.

Can you refresh my memory of those 302s you mention that cite Cooper wanted/expected chutes from McChord.

Is Himms wrong? Often times, yes, such as placing DBC in seat 18C. Is the NYT wrong? Sounds like it. Can the 302s be inaccurate (or misleading?) Yup. But that shouldn't stop us from considering their information. To me, it comes down to discernment and weighing the evidence.
I do not have the specific 302, but it is the interview with Tina in which she describes Cooper getting impatient with the delivery of the parachutes and Tina tells him that they are on their way from McChord to which Cooper complains along the lines of “McChord is only 20 minutes away”. So, Cooper knew and anticipated receiving the requested chutes from McChord.

It has long been believed that Cooper was offered chutes from McChord and rejected them.

These two things conflict. Did Cooper expect the chutes from McChord and was impatient waiting for them? Or did he reject them? The 302s seem to indicate the former. That would mean the latter is not true. Cooper never refused the McChord chutes.

My opinion is that Cooper assumed that the FBI/NWO would supply the chutes from the local air base. Tina probably assumed the same. Cooper likely never knew that the rigs he actually did receive were not from the Air Force. This would suggest that he didn’t know the different between a USAF BA-18/22 and a Navy NB-6/8. The question is:  what does this confusion on Cooper’s part indicate about his overall knowledge of parachutes?
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7570 on: November 16, 2021, 12:50:55 AM »
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Bruce, you need to read your interview with Hayden again and the other online information about how the backpacks got from Hayden to SEATAC.  This has been discussed at length for several years both on this site and on DZ.


Yes, I do recall vaguely discussing this before.

I guess it comes down to whom do you trust? Hayden or the FBI agents who filled out the 302s and Summary Reports.

As for the 302s, I find it interesting that one of the recent ones - September ? - talked about FBI agents in Seattle calling two individuals in the wee hours of Thanksgiving Day, Nov 25, to talk about the parachutes. The names were redacted but I assume they were Normans and his buddy Barry Halsted from Pacific Aviation.

I find that remarkable that agents were calling people at 1 and 2 am on the night of the skyjacking. Even Himms says he went to bed by 2 am. I also found it disconcerting that Norman AND Barry would both forget to tell me about the phone calls, or lied about it. Or the FBI agents called two other fellows, or they lied about it, too. Maybe everyone is lying. Imagine that.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7571 on: November 16, 2021, 12:59:37 AM »
Good info on gear both old and new.

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377
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7572 on: November 16, 2021, 01:21:41 AM »
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Good info on gear both old and new.

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377
377,

Any insight into the McChord question? If Cooper expected USAF equipment but was given Navy equipment and supposedly had no problem putting it on, does that mean he was experienced in USAF rigs AND USN rigs? Or that he didn’t know the difference and didn’t care?

Secondly, the USAF didn’t use reserve chutes except for static line jumps. Static line would have been impossible for DBC. So if he was expected USAF gear, why ask for “two back and two front”? This would indicates a lack of knowledge on the type of chutes he was getting, wouldn’t it?
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7573 on: November 16, 2021, 09:17:55 AM »
Aren’t the fully automatic deployment USAF rigs (ie no ripcord) used exclusively in ejection seats? In 1971 my recollection is that ripcord activated bailout rigs were used in aircraft that didn’t have ejection seats such as transports. I’ll bet that the C 130 that actually caught up with 305 had ripcord activated bailout rigs.

377

 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7574 on: November 16, 2021, 09:22:35 AM »
“ Static line would have been impossible for DBC.”

Not sure I agree with this. Difficult but not impossible. I believe I could have figured out how to do my DC 9 jet jump with a static line rig. Just tie or clip the end of the static line to something very solid. Moot point though. Cooper didn’t have static line rigs.

377