Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1460927 times)

Robert99 · « **Reply #7245 on:** September 07, 2021, 01:35:41 PM »

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I have posited this scenario:

1. Cooper no pulls and his body and the tightly secured bank bag land along the northern banks of the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge.
2. It remains there in the woods along the shoreline all winter until the spring floodwaters reach the bank bag.
3. The bag is carried by the river (perhaps on a piece of debris such as a log or large branch or perhaps by Cooper's own corpse) down to Tena Bar
4. The bag eventually becomes unsecured and some money spills out into the shallow waters of Tena Bar
5. The money bundles fan out and sink before being covered by sand and silt as the floodwaters recede
6. The remaining money along with any remnants of Cooper are swooped downstream and eventually end up at the bottom of the Pacific
7. The money remains buried on Tena Bar until it is discovered by Mr. Ingram

This would align with the flight path. It would account for the diatoms not accumulating until spring. It provides a reasonable and natural explanation for the money to be deposited where it was. It would explain why no sign of Cooper was ever found outside of the money.

It checks all the boxes. EXCEPT, I have no physical evidence to prove it. So it just remains a hypothesis for now.

Chaucer, just check the box for what is now called the Western Flight Path and you won't have to do any convoluted reasoning.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7246 on:** September 07, 2021, 01:48:28 PM »

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I have posited this scenario:

1. Cooper no pulls and his body and the tightly secured bank bag land along the northern banks of the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge.
2. It remains there in the woods along the shoreline all winter until the spring floodwaters reach the bank bag.
3. The bag is carried by the river (perhaps on a piece of debris such as a log or large branch or perhaps by Cooper's own corpse) down to Tena Bar
4. The bag eventually becomes unsecured and some money spills out into the shallow waters of Tena Bar
5. The money bundles fan out and sink before being covered by sand and silt as the floodwaters recede
6. The remaining money along with any remnants of Cooper are swooped downstream and eventually end up at the bottom of the Pacific
7. The money remains buried on Tena Bar until it is discovered by Mr. Ingram

This would align with the flight path. It would account for the diatoms not accumulating until spring. It provides a reasonable and natural explanation for the money to be deposited where it was. It would explain why no sign of Cooper was ever found outside of the money.

It checks all the boxes. EXCEPT, I have no physical evidence to prove it. So it just remains a hypothesis for now.

Chaucer, just check the box for what is now called the Western Flight Path and you won't have to do any convoluted reasoning.

I'm in a good mood, and I don't want to argue with you, Bob.

It's really unfortunate that we can't get along. Our theories are very similar with the exception of where the money began its journey down the Columbia. It's a shame that a distance of 10 or 12 miles stands in the way of us working productively together.

fcastle866 · « **Reply #7247 on:** September 07, 2021, 01:48:59 PM »

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the best thing the montage of the sand/bumps shows, is the large variation in sand deposits, both the bumps extending into the Columbia, and the overall area around the tena bar find location, over the years.
i.e. sand (minimally) changes. Was clay involved at any point? dunno.

the variation is due to possibly
1) natural deposition/movement/erosion due to water/flooding
2) man (bulldozer)
3) direct suction dredge output.....I believe they used the flexible-pipe-on-floats method, to deposit directly there, although it's possible they carried material on barges from longer distances. If the material was transported by barge and then dumped there, the possible location the money was originally at, extends to all the areas the barge collected dredge output from.

If a clamshell dredge was used at any point in this, it becomes easier to think of cooper money being scooped up from the bottom of the columbia without damage

There's some history of how the dredging was done, but there can always be stuff that wasn't recorded or remembered correctly.

My main point is that the same amount of thinking should be used for possibly including a theory, as excluding a theory. Too often, people exclude stuff with very little data.

Question on the money for anyone. We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800. We believe that all those bills had serial numbers. Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more? Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong. My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate? If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc. If so, how much?

snowmman · « **Reply #7248 on:** September 07, 2021, 02:10:32 PM »

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Question on the money for anyone. We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800. We believe that all those bills had serial numbers. Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more? Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong. My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate? If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc. If so, how much?

There's no documentation on how the FBI decided how much money was found, nor how they decided it was in the same order that was delivered to Cooper.

People have tried to come up with numbers for how the money was divided between insurance company, fbi, and Ingrams, to estimate the total number of bills and/or fragments.

Heck, you could probably do an estimate from the 12 bundle green table photo and be just as close as anyone, in terms of total bills.

snowmman · « **Reply #7249 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:18:41 PM »

EDIT: I was mistaken, these are not currency straps, they are the end labels for the packages.
I guess the currency straps were used from inside the packages. But since a package is shown, the size of the currency straps inside can be deduced? So maybe it's interesting.
I'll leave this up because it's interesting, historically.
"FOUR FRN BRICKS OR PACK END LABELS in used condition"

original post:

This is an interesting find, to add some possible info about what currency straps were used at different points in the bill management cycle in 1969-1974

Someone is selling on ebay, brick packs of the currency straps used for Fed Reserve of San Francisco
for $20/$10/$5/$1 notes, from the 1969-1974 period.
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shows a currency strap. (the 3 rectangles at the top of the images are the front and back of actual straps)
Looks like the packages of straps for $20s was not opened. but the $1/$5/$10 straps are informative.

While not straps unique to banks, you might think the ones used by banks in 1969-1974 were similar

I had already posted image of the straps the BEP used. I guess I don't know how the individual reserves had currency straps..i.e. where they done at BEP or ??

The blue seal on the edge of the package of currency straps (there were wrapped in brown paper, says Treasury Department Dept Bureau of Engraving and Printing

note the series year is on the $20 strap. So I guess these were used when the notes were printed and distributed.

The $20 straps say
San Francisco Federal Reserve Notes
Pkg No. 17394 Series 1969
4,000 $20's $80,000
L69572001A to L69576000A

Sealed by ... on 1/14/1970

pics attached

according to the collector book, A and B runs were printed for L reserve for $20 1969 series
L..A 00000001 thru 99999999
L..B 00000001 thru 03840000

I looked for serials starting with L69 (from the strap) in the cooper list

interestingly there are no L695...but the ones that are surrounding that are all 1963A series anyhow.
Here's the cooper bills around those. I wonder if these straps were ever used or ??

L69366281B 1963A 191 52 A
L69496881B 1963A 191 53 A
L69603540B 1963A 191 54 A
L69819203B 1963A 191 55 A

(fbi file 55 page, row, group shown for reference)

snowmman · « **Reply #7250 on:** September 07, 2021, 06:50:53 PM »

I was looking for Sluggo's n467us.com site
looks like it went off the web after Apr 20 2019

still there at the wayback archive
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interestingly the links to hi res photo images and stuff still work.
there are some things that Carr gave Sluggo that aren't available anywhere else.

i don't know if shutter preserved everything from Carr that Sluggo got.

other areas like Sluggo's timetable are useful still.
various transcripts

you can get the original aerial photos of tena bar here. they cover a wide area..may be useful for exploring theories of surrounding areas.
August 9th 1970
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Sept 6, 1974
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Sept 29th 1979 (south is up here)
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Chaucer: have you seen these before? the montage of tena bar was made from these

Transcript of Flight Crew Communications
This file is a transcript of communication between Northwest Flight 305 and Northwest SEA Flight Ops, SEA Approach Control, SEA Ground Control, SEA Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC), Oakland ARTCC and the Reno, NV Airport Traffic Control Center (ATCT). This is an Adobe PDF File.

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Transcription of Flight Crew Handwritten Notes
This file is a typed transcription of the notes taken by the Northwestern Flight 305 crew throughout the skyjacking ordeal. They have been transcribed by snowmman. There are a few areas that I don’t agree with snowmman’s interpretation, but it is a lot easier to read than the handwritten notes.
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Crew Communication Notes Received 06/20/2008

This file consists of additional notes taken by Northwest Airlines, the FBI, and FAA throughout the skyjacking ordeal, including the outcome of a conference call while the plane was in flight. Some of the pages were included in the Transcript of Flight Crew Communications. This is an Adobe PDF File.
hmm. this link doesn't work?
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but here's a link from an earlier version of the site where it still works
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Part of 1971 Seattle Sectional (SEA)
This is a JPEG of a portion of the 1971 Seattle Sectional Aviation Chart with the Flight 305 flight path marked from where it became visible on Radar to Centralia.
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Part of 1971 Seattle Sectional (PDX)
This is a JPEG of a portion of the 1971 Seattle Sectional Aviation Chart with the Flight 305 flight path marked from where it became visible on Radar to just South of Portland.

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Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (North)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point where they first appeared on radar at 19:54 PST to 20:06 PST.

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Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (Center)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point at 20:05 PST to 20:18 PST.

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Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (South)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point at 20:16 PST to 20:18 PST. The flight path continues South of Portland, OR but the FBI did not plot points for the exact location of the aircraft.

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This is a table of actions occurring throughout the NORJAK incident. In the past it has been difficult for researchers to gain an understanding of the “order of occurrence” of NORJAK events because the events are frequently described in different documents. Each action and the time it occurred have been derived from reliable sources (mostly documents released by the FBI). The purpose of this time-table is to aid the researcher in understanding the “order of occurrence” of events.
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some photos are here
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sled drop test photos
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Robert99 · « **Reply #7251 on:** September 07, 2021, 07:06:34 PM »

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I was looking for Sluggo's n467us.com site
looks like it went off the web after Apr 20 2019

I think Sluggo's entire site is available here on Shutter's site. Check the downloads.

snowmman · « **Reply #7252 on:** September 07, 2021, 07:19:38 PM »

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I was looking for Sluggo's n467us.com site
looks like it went off the web after Apr 20 2019

I think Sluggo's entire site is available here on Shutter's site. Check the downloads.

thanks Robert99, but I couldn't find it?
i notice there's a companion url You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
that has a bunch of stuff (is there a link to that from this forum directly?)

dudeman17 · « **Reply #7253 on:** September 07, 2021, 07:23:23 PM »

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In your posts about Air America a few pages back, there is a name that is familiar to me. If it's the same guy, but knowing a bit about his background it may well be. Would be interesting if it's the same guy R99 is referring to.

Interesting that a name popped up that you recognized. I guess the jumping world was pretty small back then.

I started jumping in '79 in southern California, Perris / Elsinore, which are larger dropzones as far as dropzones go. It was a fair sized community, many of whom were Vietnam veterans, some of whom were likely three-letter types. So not that far-fetched.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7254 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:07:27 PM »

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I was looking for Sluggo's n467us.com site
looks like it went off the web after Apr 20 2019

still there at the wayback archive
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

interestingly the links to hi res photo images and stuff still work.
there are some things that Carr gave Sluggo that aren't available anywhere else.

i don't know if shutter preserved everything from Carr that Sluggo got.

other areas like Sluggo's timetable are useful still.
various transcripts

you can get the original aerial photos of tena bar here. they cover a wide area..may be useful for exploring theories of surrounding areas.
August 9th 1970
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sept 6, 1974
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sept 29th 1979 (south is up here)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Chaucer: have you seen these before? the montage of tena bar was made from these

Transcript of Flight Crew Communications
This file is a transcript of communication between Northwest Flight 305 and Northwest SEA Flight Ops, SEA Approach Control, SEA Ground Control, SEA Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC), Oakland ARTCC and the Reno, NV Airport Traffic Control Center (ATCT). This is an Adobe PDF File.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Transcription of Flight Crew Handwritten Notes
This file is a typed transcription of the notes taken by the Northwestern Flight 305 crew throughout the skyjacking ordeal. They have been transcribed by snowmman. There are a few areas that I don’t agree with snowmman’s interpretation, but it is a lot easier to read than the handwritten notes.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Crew Communication Notes Received 06/20/2008

This file consists of additional notes taken by Northwest Airlines, the FBI, and FAA throughout the skyjacking ordeal, including the outcome of a conference call while the plane was in flight. Some of the pages were included in the Transcript of Flight Crew Communications. This is an Adobe PDF File.
hmm. this link doesn't work?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
but here's a link from an earlier version of the site where it still works
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Part of 1971 Seattle Sectional (SEA)
This is a JPEG of a portion of the 1971 Seattle Sectional Aviation Chart with the Flight 305 flight path marked from where it became visible on Radar to Centralia.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Part of 1971 Seattle Sectional (PDX)
This is a JPEG of a portion of the 1971 Seattle Sectional Aviation Chart with the Flight 305 flight path marked from where it became visible on Radar to just South of Portland.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (North)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point where they first appeared on radar at 19:54 PST to 20:06 PST.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (Center)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point at 20:05 PST to 20:18 PST.

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Flight Path Points 1971 Seattle Sectional (South)
This is a JPEG of the plotted points marked on the 1971 Seattle Sectional Chart used to track Flight 305’s path on November 24, 1971. This image covers the point at 20:16 PST to 20:18 PST. The flight path continues South of Portland, OR but the FBI did not plot points for the exact location of the aircraft.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

This is a table of actions occurring throughout the NORJAK incident. In the past it has been difficult for researchers to gain an understanding of the “order of occurrence” of NORJAK events because the events are frequently described in different documents. Each action and the time it occurred have been derived from reliable sources (mostly documents released by the FBI). The purpose of this time-table is to aid the researcher in understanding the “order of occurrence” of events.
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some photos are here
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sled drop test photos
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Yes, I’ve seen these images. I actually go on Sluggo’s site (or the zombie version of it lol) all the time.

I wish georger would pipe in about the Palmer Report. He’s far more knowledgeable than me about it.

snowmman · « **Reply #7255 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:39:44 PM »

was just searching thru Sheridan's 12/2018 pdf, reminding myself of things I found unsettling.
Grecco and Olson are the two characters that are Sheridan.

6 instances of either Grecco or Olson drinking bourbon. Once Olson had bourbon and soda.

dialog while waiting for a Saigon Sport Parachute Club jump ship to get off the runway

"Well, shit! Let's git the show on the road," Vince said. "What's the holdup?"

One reference to St. Cloud, Minnesota.
(remember how cooper told Tina "Minneapolis is very nice country"..that's from Geoffrey Gray's book. I'll have to see if it's in the fbi files now.

The thing is, for all the random crazy stuff I read people say about their theories, this stuff is basically the same kind of deal.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #7256 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:45:31 PM »

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Question on the money for anyone. We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800. We believe that all those bills had serial numbers. Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more? Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong. My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate? If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc. If so, how much?

The "extra" money, meaning those bills that created the shards, is undetermined. Nevertheless, there is some data that gives an educated opinion on the total number of bills deposited at T-Bar. Dorwin told me that he and his team found dozens, if not hundreds, of shards of at least 1-inch in diameter for a radius of 20 feet from the Ingram find, and down to a depth of three feet. Plus, we have seen the KATU videos of about six shards of at least 2-3 inches being placed in Plasticine evidence envelopes, which are all now missing.

I have heard numerous discussions that estimate these shards were generated from another $400 worth of bills - basically another 20 twenties. That makes the grand total of T-Bar money to be about $6,200. That's the figure I use in my book.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7257 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:53:09 PM »

Down to a depth of 3 feet? Wow…how would a shard end up buried 3 feet in the sand? It’s one thing for a whole packet, but a shard??

snowmman · « **Reply #7258 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:53:27 PM »

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Question on the money for anyone. We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800. We believe that all those bills had serial numbers. Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more? Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong. My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate? If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc. If so, how much?

The "extra" money, meaning those bills that created the shards, is undetermined. Nevertheless, there is some data that gives an educated opinion on the total number of bills deposited at T-Bar. Dorwin told me that he and his team found dozens, if not hundreds, of shards of at least 1-inch in diameter for a radius of 20 feet from the Ingram find, and down to a depth of three feet. Plus, we have seen the KATU videos of about six shards of at least 2-3 inches being placed in Plasticine evidence envelopes, which are all now missing.

I have heard numerous discussions that estimate these shards were generated from another $400 worth of bills - basically another 20 twenties. That makes the grand total of T-Bar money to be about $6,200. That's the figure I use in my book.

so any money theory needs to account for shards being created, of 1 inch diameter, and displaced 20 feet from where the bundles were found.

Sounds consistent with what a dredge might do (coupled with bulldozer).

Yet people want to say dredge is impossible. ?

snowmman · « **Reply #7259 on:** September 07, 2021, 08:55:28 PM »

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Down to a depth of 3 feet? Wow…how would a shard end up buried 3 feet in the sand? It’s one thing for a whole packet, but a shard??

all that land could have been modified by water/wind/bulldozer action.

Like I said before, the total sum of information, is so imprecise, that people with super-precise theories, seem to be ignoring the likelihood of lots of other random things happening.

Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1460927 times)

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

fcastle866

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

dudeman17

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case