Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 591976 times)

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6660 on: July 09, 2021, 02:39:01 AM »
Are these threads just going to get clogged up constantly with the georger fj back and forth. It gets exhausting and not productive. Why can’t you just respond to him directly on the DZ?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6661 on: July 09, 2021, 05:10:11 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are these threads just going to get clogged up constantly with the georger fj back and forth. It gets exhausting and not productive. Why can’t you just respond to him directly on the DZ?

Absurd. Nobody is interfering with you in any way shape or form. I feel the same way about anything related to suspects, ufos, ... but I dont complain.

Why dont you go over to DZ and post the same message for FJ ?      ?            ?           ?           ? . . .    I dont complain about your posts!  ;)

Better yet - why dont you just tell the forum what posters and subjects you will allow being posted here? Why beat around the bush ? 

Did FJ send you here to post this ?  ???
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 05:27:57 AM by georger »
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6662 on: July 09, 2021, 11:56:03 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are these threads just going to get clogged up constantly with the georger fj back and forth. It gets exhausting and not productive. Why can’t you just respond to him directly on the DZ?

Absurd. Nobody is interfering with you in any way shape or form. I feel the same way about anything related to suspects, ufos, ... but I dont complain.

Why dont you go over to DZ and post the same message for FJ ?      ?            ?           ?           ? . . .    I dont complain about your posts!  ;)

Better yet - why dont you just tell the forum what posters and subjects you will allow being posted here? Why beat around the bush ? 

Did FJ send you here to post this ?  ???

You sound like a child G... I’m fine with any and all discussion about the CASE. You and FJ’s lovers quarrel not so much! FJ is banned on here and you are not banned on the DZ so there’s that. You are clearly always over there awaiting his every post so again I ask why not just reply to him on there? I’m genuinely curious? I don’t have a dog in this fight just tired of the fight. I actually think FJ is wrong about the pressure bump but is to proud to admit it. Most of us on here are norjack veterans and can make our own assessments of FJ’s posts.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 12:10:12 PM by nickyb233 »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6663 on: July 09, 2021, 01:13:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are these threads just going to get clogged up constantly with the georger fj back and forth. It gets exhausting and not productive. Why can’t you just respond to him directly on the DZ?

Absurd. Nobody is interfering with you in any way shape or form. I feel the same way about anything related to suspects, ufos, ... but I dont complain.

Why dont you go over to DZ and post the same message for FJ ?      ?            ?           ?           ? . . .    I dont complain about your posts!  ;)

Better yet - why dont you just tell the forum what posters and subjects you will allow being posted here? Why beat around the bush ? 

Did FJ send you here to post this ?  ???

You sound like a child G... I’m fine with any and all discussion about the CASE. You and FJ’s lovers quarrel not so much! FJ is banned on here and you are not banned on the DZ so there’s that. You are clearly always over there awaiting his every post so again I ask why not just reply to him on there? I’m genuinely curious? I don’t have a dog in this fight just tired of the fight. I actually think FJ is wrong about the pressure bump but is to proud to admit it. Most of us on here are norjack veterans and can make our own assessments of FJ’s posts.

So far as I know I was banned at DZ years ago because of Blevins and FJ. They said I was.  You and FJ’s lovers quarrel ? Thats  news to me. I have enough trouble just trying to figure out what he's saying or not saying - he's an egotist. But this is not about personalities. Only FJ and Blevins make it about personalities and we left DZ years ago to get away from that. Today FJ says again I steal his material! Since when did public documents become HIS exclusive material? Steal his ideas? No. FJ's whole focus is people stealing, lying, cheating etc ... all from HIM. The minute anyone comes to a public forum and posts "thoughts" that is public domain. Since when did people thinking and breathing become FJ's personal property? It's absurd. He posted the pic below today. I guess this photo is now HIS regardless of the fact others and myself have posted this pic a thousand times before. FJ just has a peculiar outlook. He doesnt own the DB Cooper case and he isnt DB Cooper! Worst of all it is impossible to get beyond his egotism to get down to the hub of what he's saying or not saying about anything! That process requires days/weeks of reading him before he finally spells out what he is saying - and then he may deny that! He's like dealing with a petulant child who may or may not be correct about what it is he is saying ... at any given time!

Buried under all of that personality CRAP are Cooper issues! I wish we had asked Anderson what span of time oscillations happened over. Seconds? Minutes? We just didn't think to ask him. The interviews were rushed to begin with. I just assumed oscillations occurred over a matter of minutes, but that may be wrong and it may of been mere seconds. I mean no document Ive seen quotes Rat or Andy as saying: 'and the oscillations flashed before our eyes in less than a second'! If there is a document that says that I'd like to see it.

Anderson is the one who first saw the oscillations, not Rataczak. Rat and Scott were alerted to the issue by Anderson. How long had Anderson been noting this when it became apparent to him something was going on, before he notified Scott and Rataczk? My sense is, part of the story is missing. That's my view and that does not make me an idiot, liar, and a thief stealing FJ's ideas and work!  :o

I wish we could just work the problem and dispense will all of the DRAMA.       

I did not STEAL the attached from FLY JACK!  :offtopicman:
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 01:33:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6664 on: July 09, 2021, 03:55:28 PM »
There we go again. "Georger blames me for his banning from DZ years ago,, "

No. I didnt say that. I said: "So far as I know I was banned at DZ years ago because of Blevins and FJ." I did not say FJ alone. I said Blevins ...

The guy cannot even read! He always puts himself first. FJ wasnt even at DZ when I left. It was Blevins. But, it is FJ and Blevins there TODAY!

How many people has FJ told he is threw with?  Weber, me, Chaucer, . . . . . this is one of the reasons I dont trust his interpretations in the Cooper case. It starts with Carr .................. and ends with people at forums he attacks and is thru with.

I wont say any more, People are sick of these feuds.

I am thru with FLY JACK.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 04:05:44 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6665 on: July 09, 2021, 04:03:02 PM »
Back to Cooper. I am thru with FLY JACK.

Are the three photos attached consecutive frames from a movie? If they are then according to a guy at DZ, all oscillations-bump happened at C or shortly thereafter. Within seconds the guy says. But if these are consecutive frames then the time span between B and C is some fraction of a second. I dont know maybe the oscil-bump all happened in frames C to frame ........ QRXZ ?  It has to be over a period of seconds ?  Whatever the time period is there has to be time for what Andy describes below to happen ? There has to be time for the crew noticing a "pattern of oscillations continuing" !

What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. [/b]

I rest my case.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 04:14:49 PM by georger »
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6666 on: July 09, 2021, 06:23:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nicky - Over on dropzone the other day Flyjack posted an old article from Parachutist magazine about the stunt jumps from the Treat Williams movie. That article mentions six people who worked on that. As you can see from my response over there, of those six people, I was acquainted with four of them. Of those four, three of them have passed away. The fourth guy, Ray Cottingham, I believe is still around, but I haven't seen him in a few years. I don't do any social media, so I wouldn't know his facebook or anything. I think he lived in the Las Vegas area, but he was a semi-regular at Elsinore for many years. He would probably remember things about the plane/stair issues, and he might be able to direct you to the other two guys or possibly the pilots. If you can't find him on facebook, perhaps ask Daniella in the office at Elsinore. She probably won't give you his contact, but she might forward yours to him.

Thanks DM, I’ve actually had a few correspondence with Ray C when I was trying to track down Jerry Tyson... I got in touch with him through the old school skydivers facebook group. I had no idea he was part of the movie stunt. I will reach back out to him and report back. Do you have the names of the other 2 you didn’t recognize? You should really consider getting on Facebook if anything for the old school skydivers group. I think you’d enjoy it!


The names are in the article FJ posted, but they're Bill Edwards and Jerry Meyers. I think I kinda-sorta remember Meyers. If Ray still has the paperwork from the job, it probably names the pilots.

I've thought about joining F-book specifically for that group, but so far haven't brought myself to do it.
 
The following users thanked this post: nickyb233

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6667 on: July 09, 2021, 10:49:52 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nicky - Over on dropzone the other day Flyjack posted an old article from Parachutist magazine about the stunt jumps from the Treat Williams movie. That article mentions six people who worked on that. As you can see from my response over there, of those six people, I was acquainted with four of them. Of those four, three of them have passed away. The fourth guy, Ray Cottingham, I believe is still around, but I haven't seen him in a few years. I don't do any social media, so I wouldn't know his facebook or anything. I think he lived in the Las Vegas area, but he was a semi-regular at Elsinore for many years. He would probably remember things about the plane/stair issues, and he might be able to direct you to the other two guys or possibly the pilots. If you can't find him on facebook, perhaps ask Daniella in the office at Elsinore. She probably won't give you his contact, but she might forward yours to him.

Thanks DM, I’ve actually had a few correspondence with Ray C when I was trying to track down Jerry Tyson... I got in touch with him through the old school skydivers facebook group. I had no idea he was part of the movie stunt. I will reach back out to him and report back. Do you have the names of the other 2 you didn’t recognize? You should really consider getting on Facebook if anything for the old school skydivers group. I think you’d enjoy it!


The names are in the article FJ posted, but they're Bill Edwards and Jerry Meyers. I think I kinda-sorta remember Meyers. If Ray still has the paperwork from the job, it probably names the pilots.

I've thought about joining F-book specifically for that group, but so far haven't brought myself to do it.

Thanks, I will do my due diligence and report back.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6668 on: July 09, 2021, 11:41:59 PM »
The story has now changed abruptly at DZ. No sources or attributions given for anything posted. Some of it comes from a Rataczak interview, some from the Anderson interview. If I read this correctly, oscillations are now being 'documented" before Cooper jumped. No definition of the word: oscillations.

 "     Q18:  Is there anything else you consider significant to the question of where the hijacker jumped?
A:  It was very dark, with virtually no ground reference except when we got in the Portland area.  We bounced around the clouds, with occasional breaks. The 727’s  slipstream initially overcame the aft stairs hydraulic system.  The stairs weren’t opening like Cooper needed. Cooper called me on the interphone while Tina was riding up front with us. Cooper had let Tina come to the front.  He yelled,  "slow it down!."  I stated back to Cooper, "OK."  And we did;  we slowed the plane. The oscillations continued, as I remember, but were smoother and we hadn’t heard anything from Cooper.  Bill called back to him (8:05) and he finally answered.  He said everything was “OK”. More time passed. And then suddenly came that “bump”. After the final "bump" which we felt with our ears, we all discussed it for awhile, waiting for another bump.  It never repeated, so we assumed that was his exit.  But we discussed this among ourselves before notifying NWA.  The truth is, we just didn't know for sure.  I just don't recall how much time lapsed between feeling the final "bump" and reporting it to NWA via radio.  That’s where the uncertainty has come from.  But later we all thought that final bump was his exit.   
 
Oscillations were noticed before 8:05 (last comm with Cooper) and CONTINUED after 8:05....
 
A:  That’s a good question because We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change. We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly. 
A physically distinguishable bump came abruptly after they had been motoring the gauges (since 8:05)..
Anderson also said they never detected any further major airflow disruptions after the thud,, not NONE.
 
There were minor oscillations monitored before and after 8:05, the physical "bump" was "the largest by far"...
 
A:  Q5.   Not really and it wasn’t exactly as you describe.  These were minor oscillations. We detected on the gauges only.  We just presumed pretty quickly that it was Cooper fiddling with the aft stairs but we weren’t one hundred percent sure because we were already flying dirty, with throttles up and fighting icing and weather.  A lot going on and it wasn’t totally smooth even before the oscillations started. What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. 
 
The context is the minor oscillations felt well before 8:11.... not at 8:11
 
At 8:11 the crew reported oscillations and fluctuations in the cabin... Anderson makes it clear there were minor oscillations well before 8:05 and after,, why report them at 8:11,,  because they had increased in frequency and magnitude just like the sled test. At 8:11 it was felt in the cabin.... "


Things now begin to make sense. The whole story is now put together and documented. Congrats!  :congrats:

PS: after my post the editor adds: "and NO, the story hasn't changed."  :-\ (where have we heard that before!) 

 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 02:35:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6669 on: July 10, 2021, 02:51:28 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The story has now changed abruptly at DZ. No sources or attributions given for anything posted. Some of it comes from a Rataczak interview, some from the Anderson interview. If I read this correctly, oscillations are now being 'documented" before Cooper jumped. No definition of the word: oscillations.

 "     Q18:  Is there anything else you consider significant to the question of where the hijacker jumped?
A:  It was very dark, with virtually no ground reference except when we got in the Portland area.  We bounced around the clouds, with occasional breaks. The 727’s  slipstream initially overcame the aft stairs hydraulic system.  The stairs weren’t opening like Cooper needed. Cooper called me on the interphone while Tina was riding up front with us. Cooper had let Tina come to the front.  He yelled,  "slow it down!."  I stated back to Cooper, "OK."  And we did;  we slowed the plane. The oscillations continued, as I remember, but were smoother and we hadn’t heard anything from Cooper.  Bill called back to him (8:05) and he finally answered.  He said everything was “OK”. More time passed. And then suddenly came that “bump”. After the final "bump" which we felt with our ears, we all discussed it for awhile, waiting for another bump.  It never repeated, so we assumed that was his exit.  But we discussed this among ourselves before notifying NWA.  The truth is, we just didn't know for sure.  I just don't recall how much time lapsed between feeling the final "bump" and reporting it to NWA via radio.  That’s where the uncertainty has come from.  But later we all thought that final bump was his exit.   
 
Oscillations were noticed before 8:05 (last comm with Cooper) and CONTINUED after 8:05....
 
A:  That’s a good question because We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change. We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly. 
A physically distinguishable bump came abruptly after they had been motoring the gauges (since 8:05)..
Anderson also said they never detected any further major airflow disruptions after the thud,, not NONE.
 
There were minor oscillations monitored before and after 8:05, the physical "bump" was "the largest by far"...
 
A:  Q5.   Not really and it wasn’t exactly as you describe.  These were minor oscillations. We detected on the gauges only.  We just presumed pretty quickly that it was Cooper fiddling with the aft stairs but we weren’t one hundred percent sure because we were already flying dirty, with throttles up and fighting icing and weather.  A lot going on and it wasn’t totally smooth even before the oscillations started. What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. 
 
The context is the minor oscillations felt well before 8:11.... not at 8:11
 
At 8:11 the crew reported oscillations and fluctuations in the cabin... Anderson makes it clear there were minor oscillations well before 8:05 and after,, why report them at 8:11,,  because they had increased in frequency and magnitude just like the sled test. At 8:11 it was felt in the cabin.... "


Things now begin to make sense. The whole story is now put together and documented. Congrats!  :congrats:

PS: after my post the editor adds: "and NO, the story hasn't changed."  :-\

So it seems Cooper knew why the stairs weren’t opening. The plane was just going to fast and the trouble with the stairs bares no weight on his 727 knowledge. DBC knew a thing or two about aeronautics I’d say. Tina never opened the stairs for him even though he asked she stay on board do so. All she did was a quick and easy demo on the very obvious lever next the the aft stairs? Seems like the stupid demo on how to put on the oxygen mask they do on flights, like who couldn’t figure that out? RED HERRING!
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 845
  • Thanked: 168 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6670 on: July 13, 2021, 12:58:32 AM »
What is the tie is a red herring?

I don't mean that Cooper was intentionally trying to mislead investigators. I mean Tom's particle research has led many researchers to pursue suspects who have connections to the rare earth metals to the exclusion of others.

But what if the tie is meaningless? What if it wasn't Cooper's tie? What if it was his tie, but he bought it second-hand at a thrift shop? What if he borrowed or stole it?

I'm not posting this to denigrate Tom's excellent research or provoke an argument. It's more of a thought exercise:  what if the tie isn't as crucial as we often make it out to be? Should we only pursue suspects who are directly related to the tie particles?
 

Offline andrade1812

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Thanked: 102 times
    • My Website
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6671 on: July 13, 2021, 09:08:34 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What is the tie is a red herring?

I don't mean that Cooper was intentionally trying to mislead investigators. I mean Tom's particle research has led many researchers to pursue suspects who have connections to the rare earth metals to the exclusion of others.

But what if the tie is meaningless? What if it wasn't Cooper's tie? What if it was his tie, but he bought it second-hand at a thrift shop? What if he borrowed or stole it?

I'm not posting this to denigrate Tom's excellent research or provoke an argument. It's more of a thought exercise:  what if the tie isn't as crucial as we often make it out to be? Should we only pursue suspects who are directly related to the tie particles?

My opinion is the tie can only work retroactively, we can look back at prior suspects. There are a few who align with the research. However, it can't help us with new suspects, that's just a form a data mining and is much more likely to produce false positives.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 845
  • Thanked: 168 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6672 on: July 13, 2021, 10:09:55 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What is the tie is a red herring?

I don't mean that Cooper was intentionally trying to mislead investigators. I mean Tom's particle research has led many researchers to pursue suspects who have connections to the rare earth metals to the exclusion of others.

But what if the tie is meaningless? What if it wasn't Cooper's tie? What if it was his tie, but he bought it second-hand at a thrift shop? What if he borrowed or stole it?

I'm not posting this to denigrate Tom's excellent research or provoke an argument. It's more of a thought exercise:  what if the tie isn't as crucial as we often make it out to be? Should we only pursue suspects who are directly related to the tie particles?

My opinion is the tie can only work retroactively, we can look back at prior suspects. There are a few who align with the research. However, it can't help us with new suspects, that's just a form a data mining and is much more likely to produce false positives.
I tend to agree with this.

What if someone finds a suspect who fits Cooper to a T (description, parachute experience, etc.), but has absolutely NO connection to titanium or rare earth metals? Are they to be discounted? I'd hope not.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Thanked: 441 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6673 on: July 13, 2021, 02:22:43 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What is the tie is a red herring?

I don't mean that Cooper was intentionally trying to mislead investigators. I mean Tom's particle research has led many researchers to pursue suspects who have connections to the rare earth metals to the exclusion of others.

But what if the tie is meaningless? What if it wasn't Cooper's tie? What if it was his tie, but he bought it second-hand at a thrift shop? What if he borrowed or stole it?

I'm not posting this to denigrate Tom's excellent research or provoke an argument. It's more of a thought exercise:  what if the tie isn't as crucial as we often make it out to be? Should we only pursue suspects who are directly related to the tie particles?

My opinion is the tie can only work retroactively, we can look back at prior suspects. There are a few who align with the research. However, it can't help us with new suspects, that's just a form a data mining and is much more likely to produce false positives.
I tend to agree with this.

What if someone finds a suspect who fits Cooper to a T (description, parachute experience, etc.), but has absolutely NO connection to titanium or rare earth metals? Are they to be discounted? I'd hope not.

Was the tie radioactive beyond the normal  - cant remember ?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 02:23:36 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 845
  • Thanked: 168 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6674 on: July 13, 2021, 04:57:35 PM »
Wow, the tie was radioactive? I have never heard that before...