Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.8%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (5.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.9%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (19.6%)
75% Cooper lived
11 (21.6%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (37.3%)

Total Members Voted: 46

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 527072 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6540 on: June 16, 2021, 02:43:38 PM »
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It’s important to note that the pressure bump occurred AFTER the oscillations, but we don’t know the precise time of the bump. Any attempt to pinpoint a bump/jump time is guesswork.

That seems to be a FACT everyone but the uninformed can agree on. The stairs are a 'lever' attached to a larger mass in motion, hanging out in the wind. Like Shutter's example of a car window. Motion is inevitable. Motion = oscillations. As  long as the car is moving some kind of motion of that ribbon being held in the window is inevitable. This aint rocket science!  ;)

Now. Add weight and then remove weight to the ribbon.  What 'must' happen and when ?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 04:07:00 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6541 on: June 22, 2021, 03:01:48 AM »
FJ has graced us with a definition. Congrats. FJ says:

" It is accurate. The oscillations were "pressure bumps" measured on the Cabin rate of change pressure gauge.
This was replicated by the sled test,, the frequency and duration of fluctuations increased after the sled was dropped. "reacted violently"

Now. What physics involving stairs, hole, and rate of climb indicator was involved?

During the sled test, the frequency and duration of fluctuations increased after the sled was dropped. "reacted violently"

FJ does not say there were no fluctuations/oscillations prior to sled being dropped.  Anderson gives a different version:

"A:  Q5.   Not really and it wasn’t exactly as you describe.  These were minor oscillations. We detected on the gauges only.  We just presumed pretty quickly that it was Cooper fiddling with the aft stairs but we weren’t one hundred percent sure because we were already flying dirty, with throttles up and fighting icing and weather.  A lot going on and it wasn’t totally smooth even before the oscillations started. What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. 


Oscillations when weight is on the stairs. Oscillations stop when weight is off the stairs. But oscillations do not start ONLY when weight is off the stairs, as FJ insists.

Anderson and FJ conflict. Anderson says: "When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it." Anderson says oscillations stopped when the final bump occurred, not started as FJ insists. FJ's order is different. Oscillations and bump start AFTER weight ie Cooper has left the stairs, not before. That is the opposite fo what Anderson says happened. The Physics of oscillations/bump for Anderson vs FJ are clearly different!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 03:59:22 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6542 on: June 22, 2021, 11:30:50 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 11:36:20 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6543 on: June 23, 2021, 04:45:39 AM »
Dropzone is back up.

FJ has finally wobbled, waffled, and given ground ... now blaming the problem of oscillations vs bump on 'imprecise language' in various reports, on the part of various people,, people and docs FJ himself previously cited as gospel.

"The problem here is the vague and imprecise language. Oscillations/fluctuations are pressure bumps but the "pressure bump" referred to by the crew in retrospect was an attempt to ID the BIGGEST and last one felt by the crew when Cooper likely jumped. At the time time the crew wasn't sure what was happening."

Likewise, FJ finally makes a further concession: "Is it possible the money landed on the banks of the Columbia, sure anything is "possible" but it is unlikely and requires a rejection of evidence that Cooper did. It is even possible dropped money could have fallen off the stairs after Cooper jumped,,, there is no evidence to support the claim that Cooper landed in the Columbia or on its banks." 

And, "Nothing wrong with conjecture but that is what it is."  Except of course when it's FJ's conjecture!

All because Chaucer stuck to his guns. . . . .  vote the smileycode and safe 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:05:19 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6544 on: June 23, 2021, 10:26:05 AM »
DZ appears to be down again this morning.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6545 on: June 24, 2021, 05:57:08 PM »
Gamer FLY JACK continues playing his cards from his stacked deck at DZ:

1. He is playing against people who arent even allowed to be at DZ!
2. He is calling evidence ONLY what he alone is willing to admit as EVIDENCE!
3. He is ignoring passages from the Anderson interview - wholesale - using only passages he wants seen. Ignoring all the rest. 
4. Keeps calling it the FBI's dz ... the FBI did not work on a fp or dz!  That job was done by others. :rofl:

FJ continues to post at DZ unopposed. He can and does say any damned thing he wants without any real opposition.

Except that the whole game is now so corrupted ......... people have ceased to care!  It's FLYJACK vs. the Penn Elementary K1 Kindergarten class. Congrats to FJ for his GAME at DROP ZONE !

The choices left are few. Or, is it possible FJ posts as he does not because he is mistaken, but because he's too fracking stupid and argumentative to know the difference? That could explain his whole agenda for the last ten years? Good grief...

 :rofl: :nono:   
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 06:16:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6546 on: June 25, 2021, 12:25:33 PM »
Everything should be open for debate.

The window is closing with living witnesses to the crime. key factors need to be answered to come to any type of solid conclusion on multiple things surrounding the case.

We have reports of Cooper possibly jumping near Scholls airport. this was based on a radar operator working that evening. then you have the transcripts and crew statements conflicting with the radar operator.

The terminology differs in statements compounding the problems.

When dealing with wind, altitude, pressure, speed etc. a chain of events can occur.

We know the plane was not pressurized prior to taking off from SeaTac. the air pressure in the plane should be different from outside at higher altitudes. any breach should be notice either by physical evidence or electronic evidence (gauges)

A series of events should of taken place prior to Cooper's exit.

#1 A noticeable change when the stairs dropped. negative pressure should of left the plane and then the pressure equalized soon after. the air is thinner the higher you go. take a tube of toothpaste, squeeze it while opening the cap. the toothpaste would act like the air escaping out the back of the plane.

#2 The stairs dropping further due to weight on the stairs. this should also disrupt the airflow  wind would come from the bottom around the stairs in vortex pockets causing fluctuations in the airflow. some might agree it could be called Helmholtz Resonance. this can be demonstrated  by blowing over the mouth of a bottle.

#3 Once Cooper takes the Nestea plunge the stairs retract, almost closing pushing air into the plane. this would be the most violent of them all making it's presents known physically as well as on the gauges, and statements of a thud making sound part of this single event. this will also be a quick event similar to the stairs dropping when opened. by the time it shows on the gauge and the popping of the ears, the event had already passed.

To simulate this event, one could say the cracking of a window would be Cooper on the stairs. air rushes in and out at different frequencies until they match. everyone in the car would know a window has opened. once you close the window this would also be noticed and would be over causing a disruption in sound. each car is different based on how airtight the car is.

To stop the noise from the stairs they would have to open something else to stop the disruption. even the cracking of a window has arguments with terms. some say it's the Helmholtz Resonance, while other claim it's window buffeting..terminology also used is "air thump."

These are different events that will have different effects. they focused on recreating the most violent occurrence they spoke about. "the biggest bump" the term is not important. Rataczak calls it a fluctuation of air pressure.

I'm not really sure any dialog is missing in reference to when they believe Cooper left the plane. documents show both events occurring one after the other. it doesn't have to mention correct terms. If events 2 and 3 happened in close proximity which sounds like what possibly could of happened then the time on the transcripts could be the location of exit.

Anderson statement.

Quote
I monitored the gauges and reported to Captain Scott.  We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change.  We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly.

They were already looking at the gauges and determined Cooper was on the stairs. (event 2)
They describe the bump as the largest. this is event 3. the stairs going back upward pushing air into the plane and everyone onboard knew something happened different from event 1 & 2.

Again, we have Cooper possibly taking a little time to get to the bottom of the stairs and then jumping soon after. they were reporting the movement of the stairs on the transcripts and conclude the jump took place soon after the movement of the stairs. a 302 has quotations of what was said that is different to the transcripts we read. they mention the ears and two events back to back. "no further major airflow disruptions after the thud" here you have evidence that disruptions occurred the entire time the stairs were in free fall. they were aware of the difference between free fall position, the lowered position as well as when they retracted.
Quote
The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly.

Anderson was very specific in this comment. we have a picture of them with a man on the stairs. they called the cockpit and probably got a response of "yes, this is what we seen on the gauges. (oscillations/fluctuations)
The they drop the sled and the stairs retract and they report again, yes, this is what we felt, read, and heard. duplicating two different events to match what happened.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 12:31:14 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6547 on: June 25, 2021, 02:06:46 PM »
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Everything should be open for debate.

The window is closing with living witnesses to the crime. key factors need to be answered to come to any type of solid conclusion on multiple things surrounding the case.

We have reports of Cooper possibly jumping near Scholls airport. this was based on a radar operator working that evening. then you have the transcripts and crew statements conflicting with the radar operator.

The terminology differs in statements compounding the problems.

When dealing with wind, altitude, pressure, speed etc. a chain of events can occur.

We know the plane was not pressurized prior to taking off from SeaTac. the air pressure in the plane should be different from outside at higher altitudes. any breach should be notice either by physical evidence or electronic evidence (gauges)

A series of events should of taken place prior to Cooper's exit.

#1 A noticeable change when the stairs dropped. negative pressure should of left the plane and then the pressure equalized soon after. the air is thinner the higher you go. take a tube of toothpaste, squeeze it while opening the cap. the toothpaste would act like the air escaping out the back of the plane.

#2 The stairs dropping further due to weight on the stairs. this should also disrupt the airflow  wind would come from the bottom around the stairs in vortex pockets causing fluctuations in the airflow. some might agree it could be called Helmholtz Resonance. this can be demonstrated  by blowing over the mouth of a bottle.

#3 Once Cooper takes the Nestea plunge the stairs retract, almost closing pushing air into the plane. this would be the most violent of them all making it's presents known physically as well as on the gauges, and statements of a thud making sound part of this single event. this will also be a quick event similar to the stairs dropping when opened. by the time it shows on the gauge and the popping of the ears, the event had already passed.

To simulate this event, one could say the cracking of a window would be Cooper on the stairs. air rushes in and out at different frequencies until they match. everyone in the car would know a window has opened. once you close the window this would also be noticed and would be over causing a disruption in sound. each car is different based on how airtight the car is.

To stop the noise from the stairs they would have to open something else to stop the disruption. even the cracking of a window has arguments with terms. some say it's the Helmholtz Resonance, while other claim it's window buffeting..terminology also used is "air thump."

These are different events that will have different effects. they focused on recreating the most violent occurrence they spoke about. "the biggest bump" the term is not important. Rataczak calls it a fluctuation of air pressure.

I'm not really sure any dialog is missing in reference to when they believe Cooper left the plane. documents show both events occurring one after the other. it doesn't have to mention correct terms. If events 2 and 3 happened in close proximity which sounds like what possibly could of happened then the time on the transcripts could be the location of exit.

Anderson statement.

Quote
I monitored the gauges and reported to Captain Scott.  We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change.  We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly.

They were already looking at the gauges and determined Cooper was on the stairs. (event 2)
They describe the bump as the largest. this is event 3. the stairs going back upward pushing air into the plane and everyone onboard knew something happened different from event 1 & 2.

Again, we have Cooper possibly taking a little time to get to the bottom of the stairs and then jumping soon after. they were reporting the movement of the stairs on the transcripts and conclude the jump took place soon after the movement of the stairs. a 302 has quotations of what was said that is different to the transcripts we read. they mention the ears and two events back to back. "no further major airflow disruptions after the thud" here you have evidence that disruptions occurred the entire time the stairs were in free fall. they were aware of the difference between free fall position, the lowered position as well as when they retracted.
Quote
The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly.

Anderson was very specific in this comment. we have a picture of them with a man on the stairs. they called the cockpit and probably got a response of "yes, this is what we seen on the gauges. (oscillations/fluctuations)
The they drop the sled and the stairs retract and they report again, yes, this is what we felt, read, and heard. duplicating two different events to match what happened.

Very well done ...  :congrats:
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 03:35:30 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6548 on: June 25, 2021, 05:40:58 PM »
I concur.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6549 on: June 26, 2021, 12:06:27 AM »
Have been refreshing on old forum posts, especially those related to oscillations-bump. Here was Sluggo's position back in 08-09. Interesting vs where things are today!

Various people had a whole variety of questions and issues; people's posts reflected that. Old posts include posts by Sluggo, Ckret, Snowmman, Farflung and several other commercial/military pilots. Ckret's posts were not monolithic (right vs wrong) as FlyJack portrays him, but questioning and provocative.     

Sluggo_Monster
•   912 posts
•    #8270
February 28, 2009
SKYWHUFFO,


I spent a period of time thinking along similar lines. I just never come up with a scenario that made sense taking into consideration what I know about the case (or THINK I know).

The one issue that is haunting me right now is:
In later years (as recently as 2001) Rataczak was making statements (publically and supposedly to the FBI) that he was certain the oscillations followed by the “pressure bump” marked Cooper’s jump.

He even said; “I think our passenger has taken leave of us.” If that is true, why was Scott afraid to enter the cabin to check on Cooper (even after getting no response on the interphone)? Why did they continue all the way to Reno with the gear down and aft stairs extended? Why did they risk landing at Reno with the aft stairs extended? I’m sure if they didn’t know you could fly with the stairs down, they could not have been sure that they could land (safely) with them down.

Does it sound (to you) that Rataczak (and/or Scott) were CERTAIN the “pressure bump” delineated where he jumped? And, don’t forget the strange characteristic of the pneumatic “cabin pressure-altitude” system on the 727-100 to exhibit spurious “pressure bumps.”

These questions leave me with the feeling that there is a BIG piece of the puzzle missing. I don’t mean a conspiracy… just something (important) that we have not been told.

Sluggo.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 12:29:51 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6550 on: June 26, 2021, 12:29:28 AM »
Trying to figure out the dialog is one thing. understanding is another.

The statements the crew make are conflicting IMO. they state they were not sure Cooper left the plane. when you read about the crew being asked about the pressure bump/oscillation/fluctuations etc. they all agree and believe they knew when Cooper jumped. "we all looked at each other, there he goes" they report it and no replies.

The failure of anyone on the ground following up on this event is a critical error. 10 minutes or so past the jump time they are asking them to drop the temp in the cabin to slow his reflexes down and gain altitude to induce hypoxia? it's like the crew never said anything at all. no replies of "say again" or asking for a fixed location, nothing. nobody goes in the back and Tina get on the horn asking him to raise the stairs so they can land...very confusing how all this went unnoticed.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6551 on: June 26, 2021, 12:31:59 AM »
Most, if not all the copycat HJ the crew checked by going in the back or looking under the door..perhaps, NWO told them not to go in the back, I don't know.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 12:32:44 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6552 on: June 26, 2021, 12:35:36 AM »
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Trying to figure out the dialog is one thing. understanding is another.

The statements the crew make are conflicting IMO. they state they were not sure Cooper left the plane. when you read about the crew being asked about the pressure bump/oscillation/fluctuations etc. they all agree and believe they knew when Cooper jumped. "we all looked at each other, there he goes" they report it and no replies.

The failure of anyone on the ground following up on this event is a critical error. 10 minutes or so past the jump time they are asking them to drop the temp in the cabin to slow his reflexes down and gain altitude to induce hypoxia? it's like the crew never said anything at all. no replies of "say again" or asking for a fixed location, nothing. nobody goes in the back and Tina get on the horn asking him to raise the stairs so they can land...very confusing how all this went unnoticed.

I know and agree. Same questions were raised clear back in 08-09...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6553 on: June 26, 2021, 12:41:27 AM »
As I mentioned earlier today and weeks ago. it's possible nothing is really missing. the lack of communication is present by the ground believing Cooper was still on the plane.

"may be best estimate of when he exited airplane"

Even with them stating it's possible, they fail to follow up on what was told to them until after the plane lands.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6554 on: June 26, 2021, 12:48:00 AM »
Quote
he was certain the oscillations followed by the “pressure bump” marked Cooper’s jump.

Correct, two events. it appears they were close together and not minutes apart. the radio transmission took place while Cooper was on the stairs and possibly jumped while transmitting. nothing will follow the pressure bump except much smaller disruptions since the stairs were not raised and locked.