Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20%)
75% Cooper lived
11 (22%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 512307 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6510 on: June 01, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
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Each hydraulic system has two pumps and two switches that can be turned on and off. the reason being is to shut the electric pumps off when they are not needed to extend the pumps life. switching one pump off might shutdown something else, I'm not sure..

The switches are on the engineers lower panel and are usually off when you start the APU..

Is the APU operating during normal flight conditions on these early 727s?  The onboard APUs were just coming into use when the Cooper aircraft was built in the mid-1960s and it seems to have had one since there is nothing to indicate that a ground APU was utilized during the time at SEATAC.

It's for ground use only. one of the first things done in starting the aircraft giving power to the cockpit controls.

Some APUs on relatively modern aircraft can be used in flight although I don't know if they are routinely on all the time.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6511 on: June 01, 2021, 03:23:09 PM »
I watch a channel that recreates accidents and often when power is lost they crank up the APU..
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6512 on: June 04, 2021, 11:45:51 AM »
Were oscillations or pressure bumps reported in any of the copycat hijackings? If not, what would explain the difference between them and the Cooper caper?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6513 on: June 04, 2021, 04:32:54 PM »
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Were oscillations or pressure bumps reported in any of the copycat hijackings? If not, what would explain the difference between them and the Cooper caper?

Dont know but no other hijacking required a parsing of events to know when and where those hijackers jumped because for one thing conditions were different.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 04:34:43 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6514 on: June 04, 2021, 04:34:29 PM »
I believe most are documented in court recordings. most, if not all the copycats were seen on exit. I believe the pilots in the McCoy hijacking knew when he jumped. they made statements of howling, if not mistaken.

Something mentioned in the McNally hijacking..

"the pilots felt a sudden change in cabin pressure when the rear door of the aircraft was opened. In the cockpit, the remaining crew felt their ears pop as the cabin pressure fluctuated."
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 05:05:20 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6515 on: June 04, 2021, 10:56:49 PM »
More on the McCoy story...

McCoy opened the door and released the stairs. the captain could feel the drag in the airstream. the plane was at 180 knots 14,000 to 16,000 feet. two C-130's followed the plane.

A transmitter indicated a parachute had left the plane. they radioed the captain and he said he was still on the plane. McCoy tossed out one of the chutes given to him. McCoy covered the peep hole to the cockpit but they could see him under the door. they watched him put on a jumpsuit and helmet.

The money was in a duffle bag and was 3 foot tall and 3 foot wide tied between his legs. the bag weighed 70 lbs.

An interview with McCoy was done and he said he stood at the stairs geared up for a long time before going down. he grabbed the right handrail with both arms. the stairs shook and vibrated. he said the noise from the engines were horrendous. he got to the bottom, took a deep breath and stepped out into the darkness..
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:00:13 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6516 on: June 11, 2021, 05:17:30 PM »
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Were oscillations or pressure bumps reported in any of the copycat hijackings? If not, what would explain the difference between them and the Cooper caper?

Dont know but no other hijacking required a parsing of events to know when and where those hijackers jumped because for one thing conditions were different.

FlyJack has posted (#63736) information related to the above on DropZone today.  One of the items appears to be an extract from a newspaper article and the other item is identified as FBI p#23113.  Both items state that the copycat hijackings experienced the same oscillations and pressure bumps as the Cooper hijacking.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6517 on: June 12, 2021, 09:11:10 PM »
Good to know. Thanks, FJ and R99.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6518 on: June 12, 2021, 11:47:54 PM »
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Were oscillations or pressure bumps reported in any of the copycat hijackings? If not, what would explain the difference between them and the Cooper caper?

Dont know but no other hijacking required a parsing of events to know when and where those hijackers jumped because for one thing conditions were different.

FlyJack has posted (#63736) information related to the above on DropZone today.  One of the items appears to be an extract from a newspaper article and the other item is identified as FBI p#23113.  Both items state that the copycat hijackings experienced the same oscillations and pressure bumps as the Cooper hijacking.

But you missed FJ's point - the good part - according to FJ !

"The sled test showed that the oscillations/fluctuations INCREASED AFTER the weight left the stairs NOT BEFORE." 

FJ is saying the sled test proves Cooper jumped before any oscillations ending in a bump! Cooper's jump (his weight leaving the stairs) is what started the oscillations ending in a bump/pressure spike.

FJ has reversed the order of things happening. FJ's conclusion is: The sled test proves when Cooper jumped. Not after oscillations or the bump, but BEFORE .... because according to FJ, the stairs cannot oscillate until weight has been on them then released! The stairs cannot oscillate in the slipstream alone. Weight must be on the stairs first, then that weight released is what starts the stairs oscillating culminating in a BUMP!!!  FJ has reverse the order of things happening which he says the sled test proves. Only FJ has the sled test interpreted correctly. He cites an FBI doc and Rataczak as proof, he says. 

FJ claims his citations prove this.

[Cooper jumps ... oscillations .... bump]   (pattern showed by the sled test according to FJ)     vs.    [oscillations.... bump .... bump simultaneous with jump] .

FJ places Cooper's jump at near Orchards .... before oscillations/bump even happened. He says Rataczak agrees. (citation FJ posts).   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 01:06:07 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6519 on: June 12, 2021, 11:49:09 PM »
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Good to know. Thanks, FJ and R99.

Know what !? Do you applaud everything/anything without knowing what you're applauding ?   Do you even know what FJ is saying? Read his post again!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:24:43 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6520 on: June 13, 2021, 01:40:08 AM »
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Good to know. Thanks, FJ and R99.

Know what !? Do you applaud everything/anything without knowing what you're applauding ?   Do you even know what FJ is saying? Read his post again!

Georger, in reply to your two posts above, you need to read what Bruce and I said again and pay attention to what was said and not said.  Neither Bruce nor I said anything about when the oscillations occurred.

But I believe the pilots said somewhere along the line that they could feel the stairs oscillating and radioed that they thought Cooper was getting ready to jump.  That is, they didn't mention anything about oscillations after they thought that Cooper had jumped and the stairs had slammed back up.

For the record, after Cooper jumped and the stairs slammed back up, there would be very minor oscillations and they would not last more than a few seconds.

Also, it is plainly obvious that Cooper tossed a number of things that he no longer needed by stepping on the stairs enough to provide an opening so that they could exit the aircraft.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6521 on: June 13, 2021, 02:51:27 AM »
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Good to know. Thanks, FJ and R99.

Know what !? Do you applaud everything/anything without knowing what you're applauding ?   Do you even know what FJ is saying? Read his post again!

Georger, in reply to your two posts above, you need to read what Bruce and I said again and pay attention to what was said and not said.  Neither Bruce nor I said anything about when the oscillations occurred.

But I believe the pilots said somewhere along the line that they could feel the stairs oscillating and radioed that they thought Cooper was getting ready to jump.  That is, they didn't mention anything about oscillations after they thought that Cooper had jumped and the stairs had slammed back up.

For the record, after Cooper jumped and the stairs slammed back up, there would be very minor oscillations and they would not last more than a few seconds.

Also, it is plainly obvious that Cooper tossed a number of things that he no longer needed by stepping on the stairs enough to provide an opening so that they could exit the aircraft.   

So the short version is you disagree with FJ.

No surprise.

Thanks for the trip around Oz.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6522 on: June 13, 2021, 10:23:57 PM »
So what physics would explain the oscillations culminating in a bump? It certainly seems more logical the other way around.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6523 on: June 13, 2021, 11:49:37 PM »
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So what physics would explain the oscillations culminating in a bump? It certainly seems more logical the other way around.

FJ is such a phony complainer. I didnt change or alter his words in any way! His words/theory is: ""The sled test showed that the oscillations/fluctuations INCREASED AFTER the weight left the stairs NOT BEFORE."""    In other words  according to FJ, oscillations/fluctuations/bump can ONLY happen AFTER weight has been taken off unlocked stairs, NOT BEFOIRE. Those are HIS words.

Therefore, Cooper was on the unlocked stairs with no effect. Cooper jumping ie taking his weight off the stairs, is what triggered oscillations/fluctuations ending in a pressure spike(bump).

This changes the time of the jump. Not after oscillations/fluctuations/bump but BEFORE. In FJ's own words: "AFTER the weight left the stairs NOT BEFORE."

He further states this is what the TAG sled test showed and TAG Team's (Rataczak agreed) , FJ says ...

Go read his post for yourself. R99 provided a link to the post. I merely went there and read it.

The implications are profound. If FJ is correct it moves the LZ north away from the Columbia, which is what FJ wants. FJ states the correct DZ is at Orchards. 

« Last Edit: Today at 01:33:54 AM by georger »