Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1407549 times)

Offline nickyb233

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Thanked: 45 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6465 on: May 29, 2021, 10:59:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
They are not operating correctly in the video. the spring board action appears to be taken a little too far. they only go up and bounce a little coming back down..

Also, you have wind load on the stairs pushing them upward

I think more of an oscillation would’ve been created if cooper went down on the stairs and locked them in the down position as seen on this video...then climbed back up the stairs and pulled the lever to raise the aft stairs back up. This would of brought the stairs closer to the fusel lodge allowing the wind to slam them in then the rebound of the stairs from him jumping off the bottom step. I bet you if we took this 727 and had Mark jump off from 10k feet we wouldn’t feel diddly in the cabin or the cockpit!
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6466 on: May 29, 2021, 11:02:45 PM »
The wind would not allow the stairs to be locked. more weight would be required. how much is unknown..
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Thanked: 45 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6467 on: May 29, 2021, 11:06:55 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The wind would not allow the stairs to be locked. more weight would be required. how much is unknown..

And how do we know this? That could’ve been the problem cooper was having with the stairs. He wanted them all the way down so Rat has to slow down even more to make that possible.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6468 on: May 29, 2021, 11:08:48 PM »
He wanted them down at takeoff...he had trouble getting them down so they slowed the plane down for him to try again..two different events
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 11:09:14 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6469 on: May 29, 2021, 11:11:13 PM »
All known data has specified they will not go all the way down in flight. they were not designed to do such. testing has shown this multiple times..
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6470 on: May 29, 2021, 11:13:52 PM »
As the plane got older the struts got older. sometimes they had to step on the bottom to lock them in place. most of the time they went all the way down when released on the ground..

..
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Thanked: 45 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6471 on: May 29, 2021, 11:15:13 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He wanted them down at takeoff...he had trouble getting them down so they slowed the plane down for him to try again..two different events

What I’m saying is it’s unclear weather he was having trouble getting them simply to open or trouble getting them down and in the locked position. We just know he was having trouble with the stairs the specific trouble in unknown. I am aware he wanted them down on take off and if he wanted the stairs in the down locked position in flight then it would make more sense as it would’ve proven difficult to get the aft stairs to lock in the down position while in the air. How do we know the wind would not allow the stairs to lock shut?
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Thanked: 45 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6472 on: May 29, 2021, 11:17:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All known data has specified they will not go all the way down in flight. they were not designed to do such. testing has shown this multiple times..

Where can I find this data shut?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6473 on: May 29, 2021, 11:22:56 PM »
I'll have to look but I believe even 302's state this. it's just not designed for wind load pushing on the bottom. it's like trying to use a umbrella in a wind storm.

Cooper spoke with the cockpit early in the flight repeating he can't get the stairs down. the crew indicated the stairs were released. it's possible Cooper thought they would go all the way down. this has been an argument for over a decade. the stairs never locked up or down. they would have known by the lights on the EP (engineer panel)
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6474 on: May 29, 2021, 11:27:30 PM »
I've been in 130 mph winds driving. the eye wall of the hurricane hit while trying to escape. 200 mph winds are devastating and forceful. they will push and push with no forgiveness.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6475 on: May 30, 2021, 12:00:28 AM »
I believe Boeing told them the stairs would only open to a certain degree..

Here is some info from Aviation Exchange

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The aft airstair was partially deployed for the duration of the approach and landing.
The transcripts of ATC communications between NW305 and various ground stations are freely available (and a fascinating read). The relevant communications (with Reno) begin on PDF page 87 (numbered 213). Below are the mentions of the airstairs from that point on, with times given in PST, 1971-11-24. I added the text in brackets for clarity.

22:35, NW305: OKAY AH WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH [Cooper in] THE BACK [of the airplane] NOW AND AH WE'RE GOING TO GET THESE STEPS UP BEFORE WE CAN MAKE OUR LANDING...

22:43, RENO: NORTHWEST THREE ZERO FIVE WHAT'S THE STATUS ON THE STAIRS NOW SIR

22:43, NW305: AH WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF ANYBODY [in the back of the plane] YET UH TRYING TO CONTACT HIM AND THEY'RE STILL DOWN SO I WE HAVEN'T DECIDED YET AH WE MIGHT COME IN AND LAND WITH THEM DOWN THERE'D BE SOME SPARKS SO

22:48, NW305: APPROACH AH THREE ZERO FIVE WE CAN'T SEEM TO RAISE HIM BACK THERE WE KIND OF HATE TO WE'D JUST AS SOON LAND WITH THE THING HANGING DOWN IT ISN'T ALL THE WAY DOWN AND THEN PROBABLY WON'T HAVE ANY PRESSURE ON IT SO WE HOPE IT'LL (unintelligible) FREE...

22:57, NW305: ...WE'RE NOW MARKER INBOUND AND UH AH WE'RE GOING TO BE LANDING WITH THE AIR STAIR IN THE DOWN POSITION AH WE DON'T SEEM TO GET ANY RESPONSE FROM OUR FRIEND IN THE BACK

[The aircraft touches down and is taxiing.]

23:03, NW305: SEE ANY SPARKS COMING OFF THE TAIL AT ANY TIME ON AH TOUCHDOWN

23:03, RENO: NEGATIVE NONE AT ALL THE ONLY THING THAT'S VISIBLE ON THE TAIL IS LIGHT AH APPARENTLY ON YOUR RAMP

23:03, NW305: ROGER UNDERSTAND STAIR LAMPS AH STAIR LIGHTS

23:03, RENO: I DO SEE SOME AH SPARKS NOW JUST A FEW AH TRAILING YOU AH AS YOU'RE TAXIING IN

23:03, NW305: OUR AH PASSENGER TRIED TO DISEMBARK

23:03, RENO: I STILL DON'T AH GETTING A FEW SPARKS NOT VERY MANY AT ALL

23:03, NW305: OKAY WE'LL TRY TO SLOW OUR TAXIING HERE AS MUCH AH IT PROBABLY IS DRAGGIN AH

Why did the crew not retract the airstair before landing?
The airstair can only be operated from two positions: one in the main cabin and one on the exterior of the aircraft. It cannot be operated from the flight deck. The testimony of Tina Mucklow, the flight attendant whom Cooper interacted with almost exclusively, reveals that

Approximately four minutes after takeoff, [Cooper] stood up, told [Mucklow] to go to the cockpit and close the first-class curtains, and for no one to come out from behind the curtains.

It should be noted that the airstair was still closed and locked at this point. In fact, it was Cooper himself who performed the deployment:

...he asked her to demonstrate to him the procedure for opening the rear door and extending the stairway. She did this and was under the impression that he understood how to do it. She commented that it occured to her at this time that this was the only function of the aircraft which she had discussed with the hijacker during the time she had been with him which he did not seem to be fully aware of.

Even though before Mucklow left Cooper in the cabin "...she pleaded with him to take the bomb with him and he said he would take it with him or disarm it...", nobody could be sure, so complying with his demand for no one to enter the cabin was the obvious choice. Even after the crew suspected he had jumped, there was still some chance that he was present. That—on top of the clearly dangerous situation of being unrestrained in an airborne jet transport with a door open—compelled the crew to sit tight in the cockpit and land with whatever configuration they could control from there. Indeed, third officer and right-seater on the flight Bill Rataczak stated that

...no member of the crew departed from the cockpit to check on the presence of the hijacker following the arrival in the compartment of hostess Mucklow, who had locked the door behind her.

How did the airstair remain partially deployed on its own?
The airstair is in contact with the tarmac when deployed on the ground. In fact, it's designed to essentially wedge itself against the ground and act as a tail stanchion to keep the airplane from tipping backward during loading and unloading. Early 727s such as N467US had mechanical locks for the airstair in both the extended and retracted positions to accomplish this function.

However, the crew had evidence that the airstair was not locked, as Mucklow "observed the red indicator light go on the [flight engineer's] panel indicating that the stairs had been lowered." On the 727-100, that light would be de-energized only if the airstair was locked either up or down. (On the -200, a green light was added to indicate a fully extended and locked position.) The ATC transcript indicates the captain's later belief that the airstair wasn't "all the way down", so it's reasonable to assume the warning light remained illuminated.

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The inability to fully extend the airstair in flight was even known on the ground beforehand, as the transcript of communications between NW305 and the airline's base at MSP reveal (I cleaned these up):

18:38, MSP: DON'T KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN AN INTERMEDIATE POSITION.

18:40, NW305: ...STAIRS WILL OPEN ABOUT 20 DEGREES AT 120 KNOTS. IS THAT ENOUGH FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO ESCAPE THE AIRCRAFT?

18:40, MSP: WITH HIM ON STAIRS WILL OPEN POSSIBLY ENOUGH FOR HIM TO GET OUT. REMAIN UNPRESSURIZED. BE IN LANDING CONFIGURATION WITH FLAPS. SLOW TO [APPROACH] SPEED BEFORE TRYING TO EXTEND STAIRS.

As it turns out, the stair could not be opened much if at all at 170 knots during a climb, and the captain had to "have 'er about down to a hundred and sixty knots" and level off at 7,000 feet to get the resistance low enough. It makes sense that a higher angle of attack would cause a greater air load on the door due to the increased frontal area. It also makes sense that the airflow alone would be insufficient at any speed to completely re-close the door due to the geometry of the empennage, the weight of the stair, and some hydraulic damping. Once the door was open, the crew were able to climb again to 10,000 feet and keep the airspeed "in the vicinity of one seventy, one eighty [knots]".

« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:04:15 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Thanked: 243 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6476 on: May 30, 2021, 12:14:27 AM »
This doesn’t answer the question of how a press bump could be so violent with stairs that apparently weren’t easy to move up and down.
“Completely unhinged”
 
The following users thanked this post: nickyb233

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6477 on: May 30, 2021, 12:23:16 AM »
You have to understand the plane is air-tight with the exception of the stairs being open. any pressure changing upward towards the inside is going to register. the stairs came back up probably 98% very close to closing. this puts a lot of pressure into the plane. enough to register on the gauges and in the ears. Rat even knew when the bulkhead door was opened.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6478 on: May 30, 2021, 12:26:49 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This doesn’t answer the question of how a press bump could be so violent with stairs that apparently weren’t easy to move up and down.

Again, wind is a huge factor here. it moved the stairs with no problem. the dynamics prevented them from closing. the wind skipped off the stairs releasing the load it had on them..

A square house vs a round one will show how to defeat heavy wind loads..
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:28:00 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6479 on: May 30, 2021, 12:34:43 AM »
Corners of a house or building are danger zones. the proper term is "end zone condition" winds can double going around them. you can attach something by code in the middle of the building and the anchor spacing can be from 8-12 inches. if you are close to the corner, it's often 3-6 inches for anchors..