Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 483075 times)

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5775 on: November 07, 2020, 08:45:22 AM »
Well I am sure that the answer to this lies somewhere deep in the pages of this forum, but forgive me for asking, but I just cant look through all of it to find the correct answer, (if there is one?).  What happened to the damn cigarette butts from the ones he smoked?   They could not have known it in 1971 just how valuable they could have been.  Not sure if the DNA would still be intact but I imagine if its intact on a 10,000 year old Mammoth then it might have been?  I wonder if they were simply tossed?  And the DNA that exists on the tie, was it ever compared to the 5 top suspects who are deceased?  Like Reca for instance? Go easy.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Thanked: 368 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5776 on: November 08, 2020, 05:24:59 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well I am sure that the answer to this lies somewhere deep in the pages of this forum, but forgive me for asking, but I just cant look through all of it to find the correct answer, (if there is one?).  What happened to the damn cigarette butts from the ones he smoked?   They could not have known it in 1971 just how valuable they could have been.  Not sure if the DNA would still be intact but I imagine if its intact on a 10,000 year old Mammoth then it might have been?  I wonder if they were simply tossed?  And the DNA that exists on the tie, was it ever compared to the 5 top suspects who are deceased?  Like Reca for instance? Go easy.

Who is this THEY you people keep throwing around? The average FBI agent walking the streets? Forensic people at Washington? Forensic people in crime labs all over the world in 1971?  Cooper fan kids Bruce Smith, Galen Cook, Shutter, RMB, Geoff Gray, etal in 1971 ......... ?

Serological forensics had been in forensic labs for a long time by 1971. Frederick Sanger developed a DNA sequencing technique for sequencing the first full genome of a virus called phiX174, in 1975/77 with the groundwork for that building since the 1950s!  We had prints and print chemistry, serological testing, a vast knowledge concerning immune markers being assembled (out of kidney transplant research ..), micro neuron chemistry studies in every branch of anatomical medicine (an area I worked in in 69), ...... it was obvious to anyone in any area of forensics in 1971 and to educated people generally  that the value of biological evidence was important and exploding monthly! You could not become an FBI agent in 1971 without being told that in your training! Many agents had law degrees! 

The issue of the cigarette butts was probably a clerical issue. I seriously doubt Right Wing Fascist FBI zombies failed to realise the butts weren't important, in1971
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 05:41:05 AM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • Thanked: 37 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5777 on: November 08, 2020, 11:10:15 AM »
I don't doubt what you're saying is true Georger. It just makes it harder to understand how they could have lost or destroyed such vital evidence, especially when there is such little actual physical evidence to begin with. Almost unfathomable in my opinion. Any chance they are blowing smoke at us? Could they be holding back info concerning the cig butts and dna? I would be curious to hear yours  and others  thoughts  on this.   By the way, without reading thru all the 302s, could someone direct me to the ones regarding Bruce's comments as per the F.B.I. considered offering immunity to Cooper?  This seems strange considering the supposed timing of the offer. I am not saying  it wasn't  true but what were the thoughts behind the thinking?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Thanked: 368 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5778 on: November 08, 2020, 01:47:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't doubt what you're saying is true Georger. It just makes it harder to understand how they could have lost or destroyed such vital evidence, especially when there is such little actual physical evidence to begin with. Almost unfathomable in my opinion. Any chance they are blowing smoke at us? Could they be holding back info concerning the cig butts and dna? I would be curious to hear yours  and others  thoughts  on this.   By the way, without reading thru all the 302s, could someone direct me to the ones regarding Bruce's comments as per the F.B.I. considered offering immunity to Cooper?  This seems strange considering the supposed timing of the offer. I am not saying  it wasn't  true but what were the thoughts behind the thinking?

Smith hasnt pinpointed any 302s he has read - he says he was sent two 302s by somebody.  Its all vague and undefined so far.

Can anyone cite 302s that mention the cigarette butts?  Just give the DB Cooper numbers at the bottom of the pages ... or Part and page numbers ?  All 302's have a Part Number and DB Cooper page number.

Example: Part 10-007    DB Cooper page 1218    -   topic:  SF seminar   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 02:00:42 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3974
  • Thanked: 319 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5779 on: November 08, 2020, 03:57:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Index – FBI FOIA Release to 10/30/20:

Files 8-5- 19 Part 01-39
Part 01 001-35 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 02 001-22 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 03 001-23 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 04 001-25 DBC none - 1973 suspects money articles
Part 05 001-06 DBC none - 1974 articles money list
Part 06 001-25 DBC none - 1974-06 articles money list Norjack warrant
Part 07 001-25 DBC none - 1980 news articles H retires
Part 08 001-232 DBC 001-631 - 1971-72 case facts suspects
Part 09 001-487 DBC 632-1211 - 1977-1980
Part 10 001-523 DBC 1212-1763 - 1977-79 IMPT orig Case Facts! – Coffelt
Part 11 001-456 DBC 1896-2277 -1971 Drop zone
Part 14 001-409 DBC 3291-3794 - 1971 msc
Part 19 001-103 DBC 5838-5958 - FP revised Crew shown photos etc
Part 20 001-264 DBC 5959-6224 -1971 WX report that nite
Part 21 001-88 DBC 6225-6341 -  Chute bugged!
Part 22 001-359 DBC 6342-6707 - crew looks at photos etc
Part 25 001-391 DBC 7963-8464 - 1972 McCoy msc
Part 27 001-436 DBC 8978-9521 - 1972 TAG team etc Flo sketch McCoy
Part 28 001-482 DBC 9524-10055 - 1972 push for better evidence
Part 29 001-463 DBC 10056-10582 - 1973 IMPT radar data re-eval - searches cont
Part 30 001-414 DBC 10583-11089 - 1972-73 Ground Search-
Part 31 001-332 DBC 11091-11596 - 1973 common nothing outstanding
Part 32 001-457 DBC 11597-12096 - 1973 Pressure Bump IMPT etc
Part 33 001-452 DBC 12097-12597 - 1973-74 Lake Merwin suspect
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13104 - 1974 IMP case summary
Part 35 001-382 DBC 13387-13386 - 1975 msc
Part 36 001-483 DBC 26330-14136 -  1971-75 ATC tapes
Part 37 001-467 DBC 14137-14654 - 1976 conference Merwin search
Part 38 001-356 DBC 14655-15158 - 1976 msc, Merwin search, Ariel chute…
Part 39 001--446 DBC 15159-15662 – 1976

Latest Release 2020:
Part 01 001-035 DBC none - 1971 Lewis River fraud
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13103 - 1973-74
Part 36 001-483 DBC 2633-14136 – 1975
Part 37 001-457 DBC 14137-14654 - 1975-76
Part 40 001-417 DBC 15666-16045 -  1977-78 Mucklow-Ratzk-Rackstraw
Part 44 001-316 DBC 17689-18213 – 1980
Part 45 001-408 DBC 44150-18741 – 1980
Part 46 001-384 DBC 18744-19262 - Money files 1980
Part 47 001-349 DBC 19263-19775 - 1982-84
Part 48 001-146 DBC 19776-20075 - 1976-89
Part 50 1989 001-397 DBC 20597-21098 –
Part 51 001-416 DBC 21099-21600 - 1977-2000 Weber etc
Section 6 001-099 DBC 3395-3794 - 1971 Ransom letter prints
Section 8 001-091 DBC 4305-4395 - 1971 Letters and Lab work

Thanks for your work on indexing the 302s. That is vitally important.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Thanked: 368 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5780 on: November 08, 2020, 04:02:22 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't doubt what you're saying is true Georger. It just makes it harder to understand how they could have lost or destroyed such vital evidence, especially when there is such little actual physical evidence to begin with. Almost unfathomable in my opinion. Any chance they are blowing smoke at us? Could they be holding back info concerning the cig butts and dna? I would be curious to hear yours  and others  thoughts  on this.   By the way, without reading thru all the 302s, could someone direct me to the ones regarding Bruce's comments as per the F.B.I. considered offering immunity to Cooper?  This seems strange considering the supposed timing of the offer. I am not saying  it wasn't  true but what were the thoughts behind the thinking?

Smith hasnt pinpointed any 302s he has read - he says he was sent two 302s by somebody.  Its all vague and undefined so far.

Can anyone cite 302s that mention the cigarette butts?  Just give the DB Cooper numbers at the bottom of the pages ... or Part and page numbers ?  All 302's have a Part Number and DB Cooper page number.

Example: Part 10-007    DB Cooper page 1218    -   topic:  SF seminar

One 302 that does mention butts is this below. Its a general Lab report mentioning evidence from the plane it has. So the Lab in Washington had the butts on December 9th, 1971.     

The usual Lab procedure was for the Lab to return evidence to office of origin, once the Lab was finished. There should be 302s after 12-9-71 about that happening. Then Reno would have kept the evidence in storage at Reno or sent it on to Seattle. Please note: we have no Lab report for any analysis on the butts they did.  !  Or, if there was some intervening Directive from the Director, the butts might have been kept at Washington and put in the NORJAK evidence locker there ... but 302s would have been generated from that happening. There are 302s about all of this somewhere .... presumably Carr searched through that paperwork trail ?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 04:13:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Thanked: 368 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5781 on: November 08, 2020, 04:03:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Index – FBI FOIA Release to 10/30/20:

Files 8-5- 19 Part 01-39
Part 01 001-35 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 02 001-22 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 03 001-23 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 04 001-25 DBC none - 1973 suspects money articles
Part 05 001-06 DBC none - 1974 articles money list
Part 06 001-25 DBC none - 1974-06 articles money list Norjack warrant
Part 07 001-25 DBC none - 1980 news articles H retires
Part 08 001-232 DBC 001-631 - 1971-72 case facts suspects
Part 09 001-487 DBC 632-1211 - 1977-1980
Part 10 001-523 DBC 1212-1763 - 1977-79 IMPT orig Case Facts! – Coffelt
Part 11 001-456 DBC 1896-2277 -1971 Drop zone
Part 14 001-409 DBC 3291-3794 - 1971 msc
Part 19 001-103 DBC 5838-5958 - FP revised Crew shown photos etc
Part 20 001-264 DBC 5959-6224 -1971 WX report that nite
Part 21 001-88 DBC 6225-6341 -  Chute bugged!
Part 22 001-359 DBC 6342-6707 - crew looks at photos etc
Part 25 001-391 DBC 7963-8464 - 1972 McCoy msc
Part 27 001-436 DBC 8978-9521 - 1972 TAG team etc Flo sketch McCoy
Part 28 001-482 DBC 9524-10055 - 1972 push for better evidence
Part 29 001-463 DBC 10056-10582 - 1973 IMPT radar data re-eval - searches cont
Part 30 001-414 DBC 10583-11089 - 1972-73 Ground Search-
Part 31 001-332 DBC 11091-11596 - 1973 common nothing outstanding
Part 32 001-457 DBC 11597-12096 - 1973 Pressure Bump IMPT etc
Part 33 001-452 DBC 12097-12597 - 1973-74 Lake Merwin suspect
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13104 - 1974 IMP case summary
Part 35 001-382 DBC 13387-13386 - 1975 msc
Part 36 001-483 DBC 26330-14136 -  1971-75 ATC tapes
Part 37 001-467 DBC 14137-14654 - 1976 conference Merwin search
Part 38 001-356 DBC 14655-15158 - 1976 msc, Merwin search, Ariel chute…
Part 39 001--446 DBC 15159-15662 – 1976

Latest Release 2020:
Part 01 001-035 DBC none - 1971 Lewis River fraud
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13103 - 1973-74
Part 36 001-483 DBC 2633-14136 – 1975
Part 37 001-457 DBC 14137-14654 - 1975-76
Part 40 001-417 DBC 15666-16045 -  1977-78 Mucklow-Ratzk-Rackstraw
Part 44 001-316 DBC 17689-18213 – 1980
Part 45 001-408 DBC 44150-18741 – 1980
Part 46 001-384 DBC 18744-19262 - Money files 1980
Part 47 001-349 DBC 19263-19775 - 1982-84
Part 48 001-146 DBC 19776-20075 - 1976-89
Part 50 1989 001-397 DBC 20597-21098 –
Part 51 001-416 DBC 21099-21600 - 1977-2000 Weber etc
Section 6 001-099 DBC 3395-3794 - 1971 Ransom letter prints
Section 8 001-091 DBC 4305-4395 - 1971 Letters and Lab work

Thanks for your work on indexing the 302s. That is vitally important.

Im about 99% of the way through all of the files ...

Please state the two 302s you were given - you mention in your last post. Just give the "DB Cooper number" at the bottom of each page. Each DB Cooper number is unique and will identify the release Part the page comes from. 

In my Index all page DB Cooper numbers are listed as: DBC ... and a number series.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 04:17:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • Thanked: 37 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5782 on: November 08, 2020, 04:24:38 PM »
I hope I haven't double posted this.... On Bruce's website there is an older article concerning Bruce and Mr. and Mrs. Sailshaw having lunch together. During this lunch Mr. Hatley talks about a story concerning someone approaching the F.B.I. ( thru his attorney I believe) with regards to possible immunity. The person  wanted immunity ( from an alleged murder) concerning the Cooper case. Is this in any way related? By the way Hager shared with me the truth behind this story. I believe Hager was telling me the truth although I am not exactly sure how he happened to know this. Hager's explanation made a lot of sense.
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • Thanked: 37 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5783 on: November 08, 2020, 04:30:14 PM »
Sorry  meant to say Bruce and Mr. and Mrs. Sailshaw were having lunch with a Mr. Ralph Hatley when Mr. Hatley shared his version of this story.
 

Offline hannahlili

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5784 on: November 09, 2020, 01:21:56 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well I am sure that the answer to this lies somewhere deep in the pages of this forum, but forgive me for asking, but I just cant look through all of it to find the correct answer, (if there is one?).  What happened to the damn cigarette butts from the ones he smoked?   They could not have known it in 1971 just how valuable they could have been.  Not sure if the DNA would still be intact but I imagine if its intact on a 10,000 year old Mammoth then it might have been?  I wonder if they were simply tossed?  And the DNA that exists on the tie, was it ever compared to the 5 top suspects who are deceased?  Like Reca for instance? Go easy.

i'm 99% sure the FBI was lazy at the beginning of the investigation and decided to just throw the cigarette butts away when they could have preserved that evidence but nope
cooperite since 2017

reddit - hhthepuppy instagram - @h4nn4h_hoffm4n
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5785 on: November 09, 2020, 05:37:10 AM »
I am not a scientist so I do not know how long DNA would stay or could be preserved on a cigarette?  You would think they might have collected everything.  I am not sure if a fingerprint can be lifted from a cigarette butt?  Unlikely I guess.  That could have been the most solid DNA but of course, they could not have known this in 1971.  Its amazing how fast technology has taken off in the last 100 and some years.  And since the night DB jumped we have seen cable TV, computers, the internet (which at first when it was being announced it was called the "information super highway".  Remember that?  And of course cell phones.  Lets not forget those.  If only Tina Mucklow or Florence Shaffner had one.  So for the record does anyone remember the brand of smokes he had?  I sure hope he quit. If so he might still be around?  When you watch old movies from the 50s pretty much everyone has a smoke in their mouth.  It was the in thing then.  Still was a bit in 1971. 
 

Online MEYDC

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5786 on: November 09, 2020, 06:40:01 AM »
Raleigh cigarettes is what Cooper smoked.
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5787 on: November 09, 2020, 02:35:09 PM »
Not your common brand.  Anyway, watching Bruce Smith's speech on  You Tube at that meeting room, An Overview, the part of the FBI dumping the Cooper case is strange in the sense that this was 1971.  The Alcatraz escape was 1962 and they are still hell bent on catching them?  Strange bit of logic there.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9110
  • Thanked: 915 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5788 on: November 09, 2020, 02:51:24 PM »
The FBI turned over the files for the escape from Alcatraz back in the late 70's to the US Marshal's. they actively look over the case mainly on there own time. The agent covering the case did discover several documents hidden by the FBI. one was a car stolen the morning of the escape. the other was a document stating a raft was found on Angel island.

The butts are gone. I don't have the 302 at the moment but they got rid of them back in the 70's I believe. they have a time limit on holding evidence which I don't think they have anymore but it appears they destroyed the evidence held in Las Vegas.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Thanked: 368 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5789 on: November 09, 2020, 03:16:56 PM »
D.B. Cooper Part 51 of 51-196 DBC 21311   written 1998 ... says the butts were destroyed in Las Vegas !

Some Lab DNA unit started looking for them in 1998 then ran into this ... 

Why did Las Vegas have the butts ? 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 03:26:18 PM by georger »