Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1430840 times)

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5520 on: May 04, 2020, 06:36:14 AM »
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Could cooper have known about issaquah sky sports proximity to SeaTac and he simply rejected military chutes because he knew it would take longer? It’s apparent cooper didn’t want to stay on the ground very long.

Don't get too wrapped up in words like "rejected" like you just used. He was given four choices. Just four. If he was given a thousand different chutes to choose from and spent half an hour picking out the right one according to specs he was heard muttering to himself, we could confidently say whether he accepted or rejected something. Had he asked Tina, "do you know which of these is easier to steer?" then we'd have some idea that he was looking for something specific.

If he knew what he was doing, the choice was quick and according to whatever logic he was following at the time, which we don't have any insight into. If he was just booksmart on how to put on a parachute and didn't know squat, he may have just eenie-meanied it.  Either way, it was a quick pick and we can't claim that he accepted or rejected anything. He had little to work with.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5521 on: May 04, 2020, 10:28:25 AM »
I've read one or two media reports stating that Cooper rejected military chutes from McChord, however, I have never read anything official concerning such an event. To the contrary, everything I've read in the FBI files seems pretty straightforward and suggests that the only chutes delivered came from Issaquah and Hayden.

Where is there anything credible that shows DBC actually rejected McChord rigs? This strikes me as another "The dummy reserve was marked with a red X" story.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5522 on: May 04, 2020, 12:42:10 PM »
I'm trying to imagine I'm Cooper, and I'm planning the whole operation.  I expect to demand parachutes to arrive at SEATAC.  What am I thinking?  It's 1971, not 1991, so even some of the civilian rigs are likely not truly "civilian" or "sport" in that they are likely combinations of a military backpack, with civilian chute, or the other way around. Or, the chutes are military, but modified for civilian use.  377 and others-am I seeing this how it was?

So what does Cooper think he will get?
1.  A full civilian rig.  Container and canopy are both sport models.
2.  A military rig, of these possible configurations:
 a. Static line for paratroopers (Did Fort Lewis have airborne troops then?)
 b. Bail out rig for a jet pilot (not ideal for a regular jump, how do you even pull the ripcord on this?)
 c. Bail out rig for an air crew (what planes were at McChord at the time that would have these?)
 d. A reserve chute for a static jump or bail out.

My question is this: What did Cooper think he would get? Experience or no experience, he may not have known what he was getting.  How do you mitigate the risk on this? Do you ask for a couple sets just so you can pick? I've read and been told that some air crews would plan on using a reserve type chute to bail out.  They would fly with a harness already on, and then quickly attach the reserve chute versus trying to put on a backpack chute.  I've read that Cooper wanted D rings on the chutes.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 12:53:17 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5523 on: May 04, 2020, 04:51:28 PM »
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I'm trying to imagine I'm Cooper, and I'm planning the whole operation.  I expect to demand parachutes to arrive at SEATAC.  What am I thinking?  It's 1971, not 1991, so even some of the civilian rigs are likely not truly "civilian" or "sport" in that they are likely combinations of a military backpack, with civilian chute, or the other way around. Or, the chutes are military, but modified for civilian use.  377 and others-am I seeing this how it was?

So what does Cooper think he will get?
1.  A full civilian rig.  Container and canopy are both sport models.
2.  A military rig, of these possible configurations:
 a. Static line for paratroopers (Did Fort Lewis have airborne troops then?)
 b. Bail out rig for a jet pilot (not ideal for a regular jump, how do you even pull the ripcord on this?)
 c. Bail out rig for an air crew (what planes were at McChord at the time that would have these?)
 d. A reserve chute for a static jump or bail out.

My question is this: What did Cooper think he would get? Experience or no experience, he may not have known what he was getting.  How do you mitigate the risk on this? Do you ask for a couple sets just so you can pick? I've read and been told that some air crews would plan on using a reserve type chute to bail out.  They would fly with a harness already on, and then quickly attach the reserve chute versus trying to put on a backpack chute.  I've read that Cooper wanted D rings on the chutes.

Cooper got what he reportedly asked for but it obviously wasn't what he thought he was asking for.  The only thing he could have expected, based on what he is said to have ask for, is an ex-military emergency back pack and a reserve chest pack.  Both of those would have been WW2 surplus equipment and not modified to be steerable.

The first "sport" chute to gain a following was apparently the ParaCommander which appeared in the mid-1960s and was quite expensive relative to the military surplus modified equipment.  If my memory is correct, a complete ParaCommander rig (backpack plus front reserve) cost about $800 in the mid-1960s compared to probably less than $100 for a complete military surplus modified rig.  In todays dollars, that translates into about $5000 for the Paracommander rig.  I think someone donated ParaCommanders to the US National Skydiving Team so they could use them in a World Competiton. 

Emergency parachutes for jet aircraft usually have ripcords, but I personally know of probable exceptions for a couple of research/experimental aircraft programs.  The exception was for an ejection seat that had the parachute mounted on the side of the ejection seat.  There was no over-the-side capability for this seat.  If the ejection seat didn't fire, then the pilot was coming down with the aircraft.  I am aware of this seat being used four times in research aircraft with two fatalities and two saves.  The saves bordered on the miraculous as they were a dual ejection from a research aircraft that was upside down, wings level, and 395 feet above ground level as measured by a theodolite.

Quick attach chest type parachutes were used mainly in WW2 for crew members who were in confined work areas or maybe other reasons.  They crew member wore the harness and the parachute pack itself was mounted near their work station so that they had immediate access to it.

Based on the way Cooper handled the parachute matter, I am personally convinced that he was not a jumper but probably had some experience wearing a parachute as an aircraft crew member.
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5524 on: May 04, 2020, 05:09:35 PM »
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Proximity?

Really, Nicky? Issaquah Sky Sports is not all that close to Sea-Tac. In 1971, I'm not sure if the I-90 or SR 520 bridges were built across Lake Washington. That meant the Staties had to drive through Renton - DURING RUSH HOUR - even though it would be fading by 5pm-ish on the day before Turkey Day.

I would give the race to McChord. Straight shot up the I-5 against rush hour traffic. Again, if I-5 was built. I'll have to check. (Just did. 1967. Plus, the 520 Bridge was built in 1963. Still the Staties had to drive through Bellevue to Seattle and then down the I-5 to Sea-Tac - an hour at least. The run from McChord with lights and sirens would be 20 minutes.)

Well that answers my question, thanks for the insight Uncle Bruce!
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5525 on: May 04, 2020, 07:06:17 PM »
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I've read one or two media reports stating that Cooper rejected military chutes from McChord, however, I have never read anything official concerning such an event. To the contrary, everything I've read in the FBI files seems pretty straightforward and suggests that the only chutes delivered came from Issaquah and Hayden.

Where is there anything credible that shows DBC actually rejected McChord rigs? This strikes me as another "The dummy reserve was marked with a red X" story.

Apologies if I misunderstood the post, Nicky. Believed you were referring to his choice once the chutes were delivered.

Yeah, I recall reading that, but chalked it up to "I wouldn't want the military involved in any way, either."
 
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Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5526 on: May 04, 2020, 07:08:42 PM »
I got a chance to listen to a couple of episodes today as I traveled to Mississippi. The most recent one and the one with Joe Swaney. Swaney said plenty of things that I don't necessarily agree with, but I thought his comments on Recca were interesting as he has a very similar take to mine.

However, the most interesting part of that podcast was a part that hit a little bit close to home. He talked about some of his other podcasts and one was about a kid from Minnesota named Brad Swanson who went missing several years ago. That name immediately rang a bell. My wife is from the same hometown as Brad Swanson's mother and graduated in the same high school class. She knew her well as there was only about 30 kids in that whole class - a very small town. She knew the kids father as well. I remember when that disappearance happened and have heard her family talk about it several times over the years. My wife's mother thinks he was abducted by aliens. I can't say that anyone else shares that opinion though. A sad story nonetheless.
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5527 on: May 04, 2020, 08:40:13 PM »
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I've read one or two media reports stating that Cooper rejected military chutes from McChord, however, I have never read anything official concerning such an event. To the contrary, everything I've read in the FBI files seems pretty straightforward and suggests that the only chutes delivered came from Issaquah and Hayden.

Where is there anything credible that shows DBC actually rejected McChord rigs? This strikes me as another "The dummy reserve was marked with a red X" story.

Apologies if I misunderstood the post, Nicky. Believed you were referring to his choice once the chutes were delivered.

Yeah, I recall reading that, but chalked it up to "I wouldn't want the military involved in any way, either."

Yeah it could have also been that requesting Civilian chutes would of insured that they had manually operated rip cords and not static line chutes.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5528 on: May 05, 2020, 03:18:33 AM »
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A parachute is not going create the pressure bump..he would have to pull the stairs up to trick them
.

That would of done the trick as well shutt. I was talking to Matt L’Hommedieu last night who is an experienced smoke jumper and he mentioned one of the ways you could of simulated the pressure bump was to bounce a a chute off the stairs, I then asked him if deploying a chute off the stairs would also work and he said yes. I also asked 377 about deploying a chute off the stairs at cooper con and he said it would of caused and oscillation/pressure bump. What do you think dudeman?

So to clarify, this part of the conversation was about the theory of Cooper jumping over Reno, and simulating the 'pressure bump' over Washington. (Right?)

I don't think deploying a parachute off the back by itself would do anything that the pilot would feel. You'd launch the pilot chute out the back and as soon as it got to line stretch it would be gone, outside and behind the plane. Unless part of it hit or snagged the tail. Besides, what rig would he have used for this? Both of the other usable parachutes were still on the plane. And bouncing a chute (the dummy reserve, the only other container besides the one he jumped) off of the stairs, I don't think it would weigh enough to move them enough.  Even simply the act of Cooper jumping wouldn't be anything they could feel. We jump from much smaller and less powerful aircraft than a jetliner, and when people exit you don't feel anything. It's not like if you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when someone launches a Triple Lindy off of it. What the pilots felt when Cooper jumped was the recoil of the airstairs. They were freefloating, (right?) so when he goes out on them his weight pushes them down. I think they might feel that, it would effectively be like a flight control surface, then when he goes and it recoils they would feel that. So to fake the pressure bump I think he would have to go out on the stairs a bit and use his weight to 'bounce' them. Not sure if there would be anything overhead to hold onto while he does that.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5529 on: May 05, 2020, 04:17:58 AM »
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... My wife's mother thinks he was abducted by aliens. I can't say that anyone else shares that opinion though. A sad story nonetheless.


Now we're talking! I've been abducted by Aliens, but I came back. Lucky me, I guess. Hope this kid shows up someday.

More specifically, I had thought for over 30 years that my lucid drams about being abducted were real. Now, I think they were something else. My current understanding is that they were a kind of "Wake-Up Call" from beings who are like Jesus, Buddha, Ramtha, etc. - Beings From Elsewhere (BFEs) who help humans become greater than what they have been. Expand one's mind. See a bigger picture. Get out of our socially conditioned smaller view of reality.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5530 on: May 05, 2020, 04:18:55 AM »
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I have thought for awhile that the dummy reserve did not have an "X" or "red X" painted on it. In fact, I have never seen anything official that mentions anything about any type of X on the dummy reserve. Yet it is widely accepted that an X was on the canister of the dummy reserve and the DBC was a fool for not noticing--not to mention Emerick also not noticing.

I don't know whether it had a red X or not, but standard protocol at any parachute school would be that any dummy training device would be clearly marked, for obvious reasons. I remember printed labels saying 'training device' or 'do not jump' that would be sewn on. It should also have been kept in the training area, nowhere near the actual rigs. How that got sent is certainly a good question. One possibility that I've considered is that Emerick sent it on purpose. When he was asked for parachutes for a hijacker, he would have had no idea about 'Cooper' or the saga that it would become. In those days there were a fair amount of politically motivated hijackings done by terrorist types. So he may have given that training dummy because it's the cheapest thing he's got, and who cares if the guy goes in. "Take me to Havana? Here's your Havana."
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5531 on: May 05, 2020, 04:20:22 AM »
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I have thought for awhile that the dummy reserve did not have an "X" or "red X" painted on it. In fact, I have never seen anything official that mentions anything about any type of X on the dummy reserve. Yet it is widely accepted that an X was on the canister of the dummy reserve and the DBC was a fool for not noticing--not to mention Emerick also not noticing.

I don't know whether it had a red X or not, but standard protocol at any parachute school would be that any dummy training device would be clearly marked, for obvious reasons. I remember printed labels saying 'training device' or 'do not jump' that would be sewn on. It should also have been kept in the training area, nowhere near the actual rigs. How that got sent is certainly a good question. One possibility that I've considered is that Emerick sent it on purpose. When he was asked for parachutes for a hijacker, he would have had no idea about 'Cooper' or the saga that it would become. In those days there were a fair amount of politically motivated hijackings done by terrorist types. So he may have given that training dummy because it's the cheapest thing he's got, and who cares if the guy goes in. "Take me to Havana? Here's your Havana."

So Emerick was a serial murderer ?
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5532 on: May 05, 2020, 05:28:57 AM »
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I'm trying to imagine I'm Cooper, and I'm planning the whole operation.  I expect to demand parachutes to arrive at SEATAC.  What am I thinking?  It's 1971, not 1991, so even some of the civilian rigs are likely not truly "civilian" or "sport" in that they are likely combinations of a military backpack, with civilian chute, or the other way around. Or, the chutes are military, but modified for civilian use.  377 and others-am I seeing this how it was?

So what does Cooper think he will get?
1.  A full civilian rig.  Container and canopy are both sport models.
2.  A military rig, of these possible configurations:
 a. Static line for paratroopers (Did Fort Lewis have airborne troops then?)
 b. Bail out rig for a jet pilot (not ideal for a regular jump, how do you even pull the ripcord on this?)
 c. Bail out rig for an air crew (what planes were at McChord at the time that would have these?)
 d. A reserve chute for a static jump or bail out.

My question is this: What did Cooper think he would get? Experience or no experience, he may not have known what he was getting.  How do you mitigate the risk on this? Do you ask for a couple sets just so you can pick? I've read and been told that some air crews would plan on using a reserve type chute to bail out.  They would fly with a harness already on, and then quickly attach the reserve chute versus trying to put on a backpack chute.  I've read that Cooper wanted D rings on the chutes.

In those days I don't think there was a lot of difference between military and sport freefall rigs. Would have been made by the same manufacturers. A lot of sport rigs were military surplus. I know sport jumpers modified military main canopies for better drive and steerability.

I think Cooper asked for '4 parachutes', then later said '2 backs and 2 fronts'. Some people think he changed his request, it might be that he just clarified it. It sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, (back) mains and (front) reserves. It's been speculated that he may have asked for two rigs so that they would give him good ones (not sabotaged) for fear that he would make Tina jump.  He got the 2 front reserves, but one of them was a dummy training device. The back chutes he got were not sport mains, but pilot emergency bailout rigs. The D-rings are where the front reserves attach to the harness on the mains. It's not that you would get a set of D-rings and hook them on, no, the D-rings were sewn permanently into the harness of the mains. The pilot bailout rigs do not have D-rings. You don't attach reserves to the bailout rigs, because the bailout rigs ARE reserves.

A lot of questions about all this. The dummy reserve is a good one. Why the bailout rigs instead of sport mains? That could just be FBI ignorance. They just go to the local flight service, those guys know Hayden so that's where they get the back chutes, and no one in that process knows better that they're not compatible with the front reserves. When Emerick is asked for the front reserves, I can't imagine that he doesn't wonder where the mains are coming from, but he probably just gives what he's asked for and doesn't offer more. There are accounts that Cossey also gave back rigs, but if he did they were also bailout rigs and he would know better. A lot of ? ? ? ?

If there were McChord rigs that were rejected, it was probably because they were, or he thought they would be, set up for static line, or that he thought they may have 'beepers'.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5533 on: May 05, 2020, 12:52:36 PM »
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... My wife's mother thinks he was abducted by aliens. I can't say that anyone else shares that opinion though. A sad story nonetheless.


Now we're talking! I've been abducted by Aliens, but I came back. Lucky me, I guess. Hope this kid shows up someday.

More specifically, I had thought for over 30 years that my lucid drams about being abducted were real. Now, I think they were something else. My current understanding is that they were a kind of "Wake-Up Call" from beings who are like Jesus, Buddha, Ramtha, etc. - Beings From Elsewhere (BFEs) who help humans become greater than what they have been. Expand one's mind. See a bigger picture. Get out of our socially conditioned smaller view of reality.

Bruce, I hope that you got a good nights sleep and returned successfully from Elsewhere.  Have they heard of D.B. Cooper in Elsewhere?
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5534 on: May 05, 2020, 06:38:36 PM »
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Another LV-164 from 11/25/71 says Cooper suggested Phoenix, then Yuma.
This says Cooper then had "preference" for Reno. Not sure if Cooper suggested Reno first?


See original post above with attachments for Yuma and Phoenix. Cooper suggested them himself.