Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 459048 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4260 on: December 05, 2019, 04:58:23 PM »
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Another thought on flares: they could have been a signaling device to folks on the ground. Perhaps the Eugene episode was a test to see how far ground teams could see them. I would assume they weren't too effective unless they were underneath the flare.

I have seen aerial flares as well as ground based flares from several miles away.  Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast.  If Cooper did not have flares with parachutes, and he didn't, then flares dropped from the airliner would be on the ground in about 40 seconds or maybe less.

There is really no purpose that flares could serve in the Cooper hijacking.  They are just another Cooper myth.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4261 on: December 05, 2019, 07:43:31 PM »
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Another thought on flares: they could have been a signaling device to folks on the ground. Perhaps the Eugene episode was a test to see how far ground teams could see them. I would assume they weren't too effective unless they were underneath the flare.

I have seen aerial flares as well as ground based flares from several miles away.  Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast.  If Cooper did not have flares with parachutes, and he didn't, then flares dropped from the airliner would be on the ground in about 40 seconds or maybe less.

There is really no purpose that flares could serve in the Cooper hijacking.  They are just another Cooper myth.

Robert. Like your recent post discussing if Cooper knew where he was in the air...this one is debatable too...flares could have served many purposes, whether or not they were used is questionable, but to say it is a myth is pretty black and white. Examples. Flares could be used for a fake bomb. They could be used to start a fire on the ground for heat or to burn the evidence, especially if he jumped south of Portland. He could signal while descending. He could drop one before landing to light the area or see the ground. He could use flares to signal once on the ground. Many possibilities. My opinion is he likely had flares for the bomb and probably didn’t need them for anything else except to maybe signal if he was in distress on the ground (as in I’ll walk out on my own, unless you see a flare, and that means I’m hurt)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 08:22:19 PM by fcastle866 »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4262 on: December 05, 2019, 09:57:23 PM »
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Another thought on flares: they could have been a signaling device to folks on the ground. Perhaps the Eugene episode was a test to see how far ground teams could see them. I would assume they weren't too effective unless they were underneath the flare.

I have seen aerial flares as well as ground based flares from several miles away.  Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast.  If Cooper did not have flares with parachutes, and he didn't, then flares dropped from the airliner would be on the ground in about 40 seconds or maybe less.

There is really no purpose that flares could serve in the Cooper hijacking.  They are just another Cooper myth.

Robert. Like your recent post discussing if Cooper knew where he was in the air...this one is debatable too...flares could have served many purposes, whether or not they were used is questionable, but to say it is a myth is pretty black and white. Examples. Flares could be used for a fake bomb. They could be used to start a fire on the ground for heat or to burn the evidence, especially if he jumped south of Portland. He could signal while descending. He could drop one before landing to light the area or see the ground. He could use flares to signal once on the ground. Many possibilities. My opinion is he likely had flares for the bomb and probably didn’t need them for anything else except to maybe signal if he was in distress on the ground (as in I’ll walk out on my own, unless you see a flare, and that means I’m hurt)

I must disagree with you on both the counts that Cooper had a good idea where he was and that the flares were of particular value to him.

On the location of the jump, Cooper only stated that he wanted to go to Mexico.  But that was not possible with the aircraft configuration so he agreed to land at Reno to refuel.  There was no actual discussion of the flight path going south.  Cooper correctly stated that the aircraft could take off with the rear stairs down but unlocked so as not to prevent the aircraft from rotating during take off.  The flight crew did not know that and argued with him.  Cooper finally conceded the point just to get the flight headed south.  But Cooper did not know the flight route that the airliner was taking after taking off.

There is no evidence that Cooper had a radio or any means to contact anyone on the ground or to determine the location of the aircraft as it headed south.  The airliner was above an overcast and several additional cloud layer and Cooper could not visually see the ground.  There is nothing to suggest that Cooper had an accomplice.  It appears that Cooper intended to jump very soon after leaving Seattle but he had difficulties lowering the stairs which delayed the jump.

It is a given that Cooper was wearing a backpack parachute and had the money bag attached to the parachute harness or to himself (which would have bee a really bad idea).  If Cooper jury rigged the missing chest pack parachute to the backpack parachute harness, then he was only compounding his problems.  If Cooper also jury rigged the attache case (which contained the flares) to the backpack then his chances of a successful jump were essentially zero in my opinion.  If Cooper needed some light source, then taking a simple flashlight would have been the ideal solution.

FULL DISCLOSURE:  I have NOT been sucked into the Cooper Vortex.  I do NOT consider Cooper to be a hero or even particularly intelligent.  As I see it, the hijacking was poorly planned and that Cooper only made it to the point where he jumped due to a lot of good luck and cooperation from NWA personnel.  I also think Cooper was a no-pull and died in the jump.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4263 on: December 05, 2019, 10:33:23 PM »
It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:52:35 PM by EU »
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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4264 on: December 05, 2019, 11:31:10 PM »
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Another thought on flares: they could have been a signaling device to folks on the ground. Perhaps the Eugene episode was a test to see how far ground teams could see them. I would assume they weren't too effective unless they were underneath the flare.

I have seen aerial flares as well as ground based flares from several miles away.  Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast.  If Cooper did not have flares with parachutes, and he didn't, then flares dropped from the airliner would be on the ground in about 40 seconds or maybe less.

There is really no purpose that flares could serve in the Cooper hijacking.  They are just another Cooper myth.

Robert. Like your recent post discussing if Cooper knew where he was in the air...this one is debatable too...flares could have served many purposes, whether or not they were used is questionable, but to say it is a myth is pretty black and white. Examples. Flares could be used for a fake bomb. They could be used to start a fire on the ground for heat or to burn the evidence, especially if he jumped south of Portland. He could signal while descending. He could drop one before landing to light the area or see the ground. He could use flares to signal once on the ground. Many possibilities. My opinion is he likely had flares for the bomb and probably didn’t need them for anything else except to maybe signal if he was in distress on the ground (as in I’ll walk out on my own, unless you see a flare, and that means I’m hurt)

Given Cooper's age, what techniques were taught paratroopers and others involving flares and flare dropping for military people/parachutists in his era. There was some chatter about this from skydivers at the old DZ, but I forget most of it. What techniques were paratroopers or parachutists in Cooper's era taught that involved flares - anything  ?

The Elsinore suspect is presumed to have had military training - and might have been a (jet) pilot?

Was the Eugene incident solved? Tracked down to a plane or person? Why was that guy dropping flares - any speculation from authorities about that?   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 11:50:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4265 on: December 06, 2019, 08:45:40 AM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4266 on: December 06, 2019, 11:24:10 AM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4267 on: December 06, 2019, 07:47:37 PM »
Robert, there are plenty, literary thousands, of airborne troops who have deployed their reserve chutes with far more equipment tied to their harnesses and less time to accomplish the fact than Coope would have had.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4268 on: December 06, 2019, 11:12:36 PM »
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Robert, there are plenty, literary thousands, of airborne troops who have deployed their reserve chutes with far more equipment tied to their harnesses and less time to accomplish the fact than Coope would have had.

I have personally witnessed at least 1000 paratroopers make static line jumps and I don't remember seeing a single one having to deploy his reserve.  I have also seen several dozen paratroopers make skydiver type delayed jumps, during the early days of the development of such tactics, and none of them had to deploy their reserves.  I have personally known paratroopers, some of whom made combat jumps in WW2, and none of them mentioned having to deploy their reserve.  I have heard of a case where US paratroopers made a combat jump from 600 feet while under live anti-aircraft fire and they left their reserve chutes on the jump plane.

The military people pay attention to how things are attached to the harness.  One of the military skydiver types, who was doing a delayed jump with a round canopy into a restricted area, had an obstacle problem.  His equipment bag was snug to his body during the free fall.  After a normal opening, this equipment bag would be released to swing from a lanyard 10 or 15 feet below the paratrooper.  The paratrooper saw the obstacle problem developing and released the equipment bag but held it between his knees.  Once the obstacle problem was cleared, the paratrooper dropped the bag and it hit the ground a second or two before he did.

The problem with Cooper is that his chance of having a successful jump would be improved if he left both reserves on the plane and only used a backpack.  Attaching a lot of things to the harness complicates the aerodynamics.  And 377 has recently posted on just that issue.   
 

Offline EU

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4269 on: December 07, 2019, 08:28:00 AM »
I've said many times that DBC took the dummy reserve for a reason. That reason was not to provide an emergency rig back-up. Additionally, I do not believe jumping with an attached bank bag, attache' case and dummy reserve creates that big of a problem if thoughtfully secured.

Consider the challenges faced by smokejumpers--equipment, rugged terrain, unsettled weather around the fire, and the fire itself.

DBC possessed skills, knowledge and stones.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4270 on: December 07, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »
Robert, 377 has used his reserve twice in a 50 year career and 2000? or so jumps? In WWII the expected main failure rate was about 1%.  So just in combat jumps you have thousands of reserves being used.

Regardless, playing with our NB6 we've been able to secure the reserve and a 20lb bag without encroaching on the rip cord
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4271 on: December 07, 2019, 11:27:57 AM »
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Robert, 377 has used his reserve twice in a 50 year career and 2000? or so jumps? In WWII the expected main failure rate was about 1%.  So just in combat jumps you have thousands of reserves being used.

Regardless, playing with our NB6 we've been able to secure the reserve and a 20lb bag without encroaching on the rip cord

I used a reserve on my 9th jump and the great Amazon, of DZ fame, reported that she used a reserve on her 10th jump.  I have personally witnessed only one or two (I can't remember which) skydivers using their reserve.  And the individual(s) in question had less than 200 jumps.

I owned an NB6 parachute until the fall of 1971 and wore it when I flew an aircraft with an extremely cramped cockpit.  And anyone who jury rigged a reserve to that type harness reduced their probability of survival in my opinion.  And if they actually had a working reserve and used it, my guess is that their probability of survival was further reduced. 
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4272 on: December 07, 2019, 01:30:57 PM »
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Robert, 377 has used his reserve twice in a 50 year career and 2000? or so jumps? In WWII the expected main failure rate was about 1%.  So just in combat jumps you have thousands of reserves being used.

Regardless, playing with our NB6 we've been able to secure the reserve and a 20lb bag without encroaching on the rip cord

I used a reserve on my 9th jump and the great Amazon, of DZ fame, reported that she used a reserve on her 10th jump.  I have personally witnessed only one or two (I can't remember which) skydivers using their reserve.  And the individual(s) in question had less than 200 jumps.

I owned an NB6 parachute until the fall of 1971 and wore it when I flew an aircraft with an extremely cramped cockpit.  And anyone who jury rigged a reserve to that type harness reduced their probability of survival in my opinion.  And if they actually had a working reserve and used it, my guess is that their probability of survival was further reduced.

Season 1, episode 2 of of America Declassified shows a skydiver jumping with a reserve container attached to either an NB6 or NB8 harness without any issues.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4273 on: December 07, 2019, 02:50:15 PM »
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Robert, 377 has used his reserve twice in a 50 year career and 2000? or so jumps? In WWII the expected main failure rate was about 1%.  So just in combat jumps you have thousands of reserves being used.

Regardless, playing with our NB6 we've been able to secure the reserve and a 20lb bag without encroaching on the rip cord

I used a reserve on my 9th jump and the great Amazon, of DZ fame, reported that she used a reserve on her 10th jump.  I have personally witnessed only one or two (I can't remember which) skydivers using their reserve.  And the individual(s) in question had less than 200 jumps.

I owned an NB6 parachute until the fall of 1971 and wore it when I flew an aircraft with an extremely cramped cockpit.  And anyone who jury rigged a reserve to that type harness reduced their probability of survival in my opinion.  And if they actually had a working reserve and used it, my guess is that their probability of survival was further reduced.

Season 1, episode 2 of of America Declassified shows a skydiver jumping with a reserve container attached to either an NB6 or NB8 harness without any issues.

... and, when the crew says 'they could see the lights of Portland-Vancouver coming up', Im willing to bet that is a true and accurate statement of the seeing conditions also vs. what R99 says every time. Some people have a habit of framing everything in absolutes that favor their position. 

EU's positions are equally extreme - absolute. He wants to freeze all natural motions of the Columbia in order to claim 'the money could only have come from the air, dropped on Tina Bar' ... or from the Mole Men who live underneath Tina Bar.  EU wont even allow that the Columbia River moves! :) 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 03:27:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4274 on: December 07, 2019, 03:55:42 PM »
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Robert, 377 has used his reserve twice in a 50 year career and 2000? or so jumps? In WWII the expected main failure rate was about 1%.  So just in combat jumps you have thousands of reserves being used.

Regardless, playing with our NB6 we've been able to secure the reserve and a 20lb bag without encroaching on the rip cord

I used a reserve on my 9th jump and the great Amazon, of DZ fame, reported that she used a reserve on her 10th jump.  I have personally witnessed only one or two (I can't remember which) skydivers using their reserve.  And the individual(s) in question had less than 200 jumps.

I owned an NB6 parachute until the fall of 1971 and wore it when I flew an aircraft with an extremely cramped cockpit.  And anyone who jury rigged a reserve to that type harness reduced their probability of survival in my opinion.  And if they actually had a working reserve and used it, my guess is that their probability of survival was further reduced.

Season 1, episode 2 of of America Declassified shows a skydiver jumping with a reserve container attached to either an NB6 or NB8 harness without any issues.

I have now viewed the Cooper segment on America Declassified, Season 1, Episode 2, which was aired on November 11, 2013.  I recommend that everyone on this site view it.  I have also dug my NB6 parachute harness out of my garage and taken another look at it.

First the good news.  The Cooper segment included interviews with Jerry Thomas, of DZ fame, and Galen Cook, who looked like a normal human male despite the claims of some people on this site to the contrary.  Galen Cook took the segment narrator to the money find location and it looked like the same place that Eric Ulis has been talking about lately.

The "Cooper jump" for the segment was made by a professional skydiver with about 20,000 jumps to his credit if I remember correctly.  The harness for his backpack parachute appeared to be a modified NB6.  The ripcord was mounted on the upper left side of the harness and modified for a pull by the left hand.  The reserve parachute (which was mandated by FAA regulations) was mounted at the hips and attached to the harness by special non-NB6 hardware which can be seen in some of the views.  Nothing else was attached to the harness.  This is NOT the harness situation that Cooper was exposed to.

I did not see anything in that segment that would change my previously expressed views about the Cooper jump.