Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 171556 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1740 on: April 09, 2019, 12:37:07 AM »
He believes Cooper drowned....

.


 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1741 on: April 09, 2019, 12:58:06 AM »
Here is the flight path published in Tosaw's book. The fp crosses at the eastern tip of Hayden Island. It has no resemblance to V23 or any other published flight path including the proposed Eastern flight path which supposedly crossed at the Troutdale airport. For those who recall that was the flight path endorsed by Ralph Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas.   

Did Tosaw subscribe to this flight path or is it just an gratuitous illustration ?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 04:00:41 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1742 on: April 09, 2019, 10:48:40 AM »
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Here is the flight path published in Tosaw's book. The fp crosses at the eastern tip of Hayden Island. It has no resemblance to V23 or any other published flight path including the proposed Eastern flight path which supposedly crossed at the Troutdale airport. For those who recall that was the flight path endorsed by Ralph Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas.   

Did Tosaw subscribe to this flight path or is it just an gratuitous illustration ?

The dashed flight path on the right is a close, yet simplified, approximation of the FBI flight path over the Columbia. I cannot read what the solid line just west of the flight path is labeled. That doesn't match anything. Is that Tosaw's flight path or something else entirely?
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Online andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1743 on: April 09, 2019, 11:18:53 AM »
Again, on page 93, Tosaw labels the dotted line "victor 23 flight path"

And yes, it's a terrible graphic that doesn't give the actual V23 corridor nor does it appear to be based on the FBI map.  The quality of the graphic is immaterial, Tosaw was, for lack of a better term, an orthodox researcher when it came to the flight path.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1744 on: April 09, 2019, 12:52:07 PM »
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Again, on page 93, Tosaw labels the dotted line "victor 23 flight path"

And yes, it's a terrible graphic that doesn't give the actual V23 corridor nor does it appear to be based on the FBI map.  The quality of the graphic is immaterial, Tosaw was, for lack of a better term, an orthodox researcher when it came to the flight path.

How so ? Please enlighten us.

The question on the table is: did Tosaw have a specific flight path someone gave him, that was the basis of his searches? So far, I doubt it.  He gave the impression he did but Im not convinced anyone gave him any special information.

In his work on the Kinnick case he actually did an FOIA request to obtain the daily log of the USS Lexington - with that he was able to find the coordinates of where Kinnick's plane had gone down, and he conducted his search accordingly. But so far, Im not sure he had any special information when he conducted his Cooper searches? There is no question that he talked to Rataczak at length but what did Rataczak actually give him that was any different than what Rataczak had to give anyone else?

By the same token here is a chart from a famous newspaper showing the money find location.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 02:11:55 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1745 on: April 09, 2019, 01:57:52 PM »
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Again, on page 93, Tosaw labels the dotted line "victor 23 flight path"

And yes, it's a terrible graphic that doesn't give the actual V23 corridor nor does it appear to be based on the FBI map.  The quality of the graphic is immaterial, Tosaw was, for lack of a better term, an orthodox researcher when it came to the flight path.

How so ? Please enlighten us.

By the same token here is a chart from a famous newspaper showing the money find location.

So Tena Bar is actually on the EAST side of Portland/Vancouver!  We have been looking on the wrong side of town all these years.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1746 on: April 09, 2019, 02:01:22 PM »
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This is for Shutter:

The Old Man doesn't believe the auto-pilot was used at the time of the jump. "You don't use an autopilot when you're doing something abnormal. Landing gear down, tailgate open is not normal. It Rataczak said he was flying the plane, he was flying the plane."

He also said the "bumps" would look the same whether the auto-pilot was on or whether a human was at the controls. "Both do the same thing, correct back to your line"

Ok, makes sense. they mention adjusting the trim. you wouldn't do that if the autopilot was on...

Yes you would do that in 1971.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1747 on: April 09, 2019, 02:43:32 PM »
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Again, on page 93, Tosaw labels the dotted line "victor 23 flight path"

And yes, it's a terrible graphic that doesn't give the actual V23 corridor nor does it appear to be based on the FBI map.  The quality of the graphic is immaterial, Tosaw was, for lack of a better term, an orthodox researcher when it came to the flight path.

How so ? Please enlighten us.

By the same token here is a chart from a famous newspaper showing the money find location.

So Tena Bar is actually on the EAST side of Portland/Vancouver!  We have been looking on the wrong side of town all these years.

Wow! Looks like Tina Bar is sitting right smack dab at Troutdale Airport ! Ridiculous!
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1748 on: April 09, 2019, 03:05:40 PM »
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This is for Shutter:

The Old Man doesn't believe the auto-pilot was used at the time of the jump. "You don't use an autopilot when you're doing something abnormal. Landing gear down, tailgate open is not normal. It Rataczak said he was flying the plane, he was flying the plane."

He also said the "bumps" would look the same whether the auto-pilot was on or whether a human was at the controls. "Both do the same thing, correct back to your line"

Ok, makes sense. they mention adjusting the trim. you wouldn't do that if the autopilot was on...

Yes you would do that in 1971.

Do what in 1971?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1749 on: April 09, 2019, 04:12:57 PM »
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This is for Shutter:

The Old Man doesn't believe the auto-pilot was used at the time of the jump. "You don't use an autopilot when you're doing something abnormal. Landing gear down, tailgate open is not normal. It Rataczak said he was flying the plane, he was flying the plane."

He also said the "bumps" would look the same whether the auto-pilot was on or whether a human was at the controls. "Both do the same thing, correct back to your line"

Ok, makes sense. they mention adjusting the trim. you wouldn't do that if the autopilot was on...

Yes you would do that in 1971.

Do what in 1971?

Adjust the trim tabs.  The airplane in question, N467US, made its first flight on April 9, 1965 and was delivered to Northwest Airlines on April 22, 1965.

So it had a 1965 or earlier technology autopilot.  Billions of dollars have been spent on improving flight control systems since that time.  And it looks like Boeing has now developed a system that can fight with the pilots and win.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1750 on: April 09, 2019, 04:41:33 PM »
My point is if the autopilot was on. the pilot wouldn't have to adjust the trim?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:51:31 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1751 on: April 12, 2019, 12:27:10 AM »
All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer  over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!

The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. :)

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 12:28:33 AM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1752 on: April 12, 2019, 01:37:12 AM »
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All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer  over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!

The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. :)

Tom Kaye

And this suggests what vis-a-vis 'discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate'. ?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1753 on: April 12, 2019, 01:56:40 AM »
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All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer  over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!

The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. :)

Tom Kaye

Yes, indeed we can do a proper analysis now.  Quillayute is also known as known as Quileute according to Wiki.  And Quileute is on US 101 a few miles south of Sequim and northwest of the Seattle area.

Georger, stay tuned and I'll have something this weekend.  I need a day or so to digest everything and get these M/S (Meters per Second) units into good old American MPH (Miles Per Hour) units that the powers in DC will approve.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 02:04:23 AM by Robert99 »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1754 on: April 12, 2019, 07:15:47 AM »
Others in the aviation field are saying similar things when I approached them with this issue..

Quote
It is possible for the winds at surface and aloft to be going in different directions. Generally, as you go up, the direction of the wind direction gradually "spirals", but it's not unheard of for them to be very different.

I pretty much already knew this..

Then, telling them the card was found 7 years later..

Quote
Which is why I don’t put much value in its location. There’s 7 years of variables that no one knows there.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 07:17:34 AM by Shutter »