Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 237152 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3375 on: October 16, 2020, 10:13:16 PM »
Robert,

Since you have demonstrated a deficiency with your reading comprehension, I have provided some visual aids for you!

As I have stated twice before, the original image with the measurements from Cinebar is based on the FBI flight path as depicted in the yellow map. I have tried to be as close to the penciled flight path as possible within a reasonable margin of error.

Again, I am not talking about V23. You continue to bring that up, and the only reason that I can think of why is so you can muddle the discussion to hide your errors. Also, I'm not discussing any other aspects of the FBI flight path outside of the Cinebar panel find, so please stop bring up extraneous aspects outside of that.

Please see the attachments below which obviously discredit your statements about my map making skills.

Cheers!
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3376 on: October 17, 2020, 12:24:45 AM »
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Robert,

Since you have demonstrated a deficiency with your reading comprehension, I have provided some visual aids for you!

As I have stated twice before, the original image with the measurements from Cinebar is based on the FBI flight path as depicted in the yellow map. I have tried to be as close to the penciled flight path as possible within a reasonable margin of error.

Again, I am not talking about V23. You continue to bring that up, and the only reason that I can think of why is so you can muddle the discussion to hide your errors. Also, I'm not discussing any other aspects of the FBI flight path outside of the Cinebar panel find, so please stop bring up extraneous aspects outside of that.

Please see the attachments below which obviously discredit your statements about my map making skills.

Cheers!

Chaucer,

Please pay careful attention to what I am describing here for at least the second time.

Upon departing SEATAC, the airliner flew south on the centerline of V-23 to the Malay Intersection.  It gave at least two position reports along V-23.  There is no reason for the airliner to be WEST of the centerline of V-23.  And there is no evidence whatsoever that the airliner was ever WEST of the centerline of V-23.

If you don't know where V-23 is in relation to the FBI flight path, the tip of the "Onalaska" arrow is on the centerline of V-23 in your attached yellow map.  The airliner did not report having any problems maintaining directional control and it is mandated to be on the centerline of V-23 unless otherwise approved by ATC and there is no record of such approval.

Upon reaching the Malay Intersection, the Western Flight Path starts and the airliner flies straight south with respect to the grid lines until it reaches the Canby Intersection and then resumes flight on the centerline of V-23.  This segment would be approved and flown on a heading as directed by ATC.  At one point, the airliner would be about 4 miles WEST of the western edge of the V-23 airway for a short distance.  And it would pass almost directly overhead of Tina Bar.  There is no reason whatsoever for the airliner to be WEST of the Western Flight Path.

There is no way on God's Green Earth that the FBI flight path describes the airliner's flight path.  It may in fact describe the flight path of one of the chase aircraft. 

Himmelsbach's book places the airliner over the western and southwestern side of Portland.  There are other factors supporting the Western Flight Path.  But there is nothing to support the FBI flight path.

 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3377 on: October 17, 2020, 12:40:54 AM »
Robert,

Please pay careful attention to what I am describing here for at least the second time.

I am only focusing on the Cinebar panel find. EU highlighted it as one of the pieces of physical evidence that confirms a Western Flight Path. I think I have demonstrated otherwise.

You are making this about the FBI flight path as a whole. I am not. This is one aspect, not the big picture.

For the record, I know where V23 is. I know where the FBI flight path is. I know what your theory is.  I know what Malay and Canby are. Your condescension does you no favors.

So, if you want to contribute to my topic (the Cinebar find), please do so. Otherwise, you are excused. Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 12:46:41 AM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3378 on: October 17, 2020, 12:51:59 AM »
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Robert,

Please pay careful attention to what I am describing here for at least the second time.

I am only focusing on the Cinebar panel find. EU highlighted it as one of the pieces of physical evidence that confirms a Western Flight Path. I think I have demonstrated otherwise.

You are making this about the FBI flight path as a whole. I am not. This is one aspect, not the big picture.

For the record, I know where V23 is. I know where the FBI flight path is. I know what your theory is.  I know what Malay and Canby are. Your condescension does you no favors.

So, if you want to contribute to my topic (the Cinebar find), please do so. Otherwise, you are excused. Thanks.

Chaucer,

You apparently don't understand what I have been pointing out.

The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

My contribution to your Cinebar topic is that it is a myth, it is without merit, it is nonsense.

Do you have any other problems that I can help you with?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3379 on: October 17, 2020, 01:27:22 AM »
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The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

So, the Cinebar find is indicative of an easterly V23 flight path, but supports a Western Flight Path?

Holy crap, do I want some of what you're drinking!  :rofl:

In all seriousness, as I have stated before, you seem to be very, very hung up on the accuracy of the penciled flight path on the yellow map. I don't think that map was in any way intended to be the definitive guide to where 305 was. In fact, other maps have been posted on here by georger that demonstrate much greater accuracy and care. The yellow map is a rough draft by the FBI, not a final copy. That's important to keep in mind as you parse people's words about this topic.

Sometimes you use a scalpel. Sometimes you use an axe. The trick is to know the difference.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3380 on: October 17, 2020, 01:31:57 AM »
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Robert,

Please pay careful attention to what I am describing here for at least the second time.

I am only focusing on the Cinebar panel find. EU highlighted it as one of the pieces of physical evidence that confirms a Western Flight Path. I think I have demonstrated otherwise.

You are making this about the FBI flight path as a whole. I am not. This is one aspect, not the big picture.

For the record, I know where V23 is. I know where the FBI flight path is. I know what your theory is.  I know what Malay and Canby are. Your condescension does you no favors.

So, if you want to contribute to my topic (the Cinebar find), please do so. Otherwise, you are excused. Thanks.

Chaucer,

You apparently don't understand what I have been pointing out.

The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

My contribution to your Cinebar topic is that it is a myth, it is without merit, it is nonsense.

Do you have any other problems that I can help you with?

The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be  ?

is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path ?  Which-ever is what-ever.

That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path wherever the actual location of the the Cinebar Find may be ?

If the Cinebar Find has anything to do Flight 305!

 :chr2:       :good post:      :congrats:      :bravo:

Im all in! Sounds OK to me!  8)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 01:37:51 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3381 on: October 17, 2020, 02:14:50 AM »
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The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

So, the Cinebar find is indicative of an easterly V23 flight path, but supports a Western Flight Path?

Holy crap, do I want some of what you're drinking!  :rofl:

In all seriousness, as I have stated before, you seem to be very, very hung up on the accuracy of the penciled flight path on the yellow map. I don't think that map was in any way intended to be the definitive guide to where 305 was. In fact, other maps have been posted on here by georger that demonstrate much greater accuracy and care. The yellow map is a rough draft by the FBI, not a final copy. That's important to keep in mind as you parse people's words about this topic.

Sometimes you use a scalpel. Sometimes you use an axe. The trick is to know the difference.

Chaucer,

So you have now come out of the closet and are claiming that the FBI flight path depicted on the yellow chart is not necessarily the actual FBI flight path?

And you are also claiming that Georger has posted a more accurate version of the FBI flight path?  Do you or Georger happen to have a copy of this more accurate FBI flight path or know where it came from?

You and Georger seem to be living proof that the less you know about a subject the more qualified you are to make claims without supporting evidence.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3382 on: October 17, 2020, 02:34:48 AM »
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The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

So, the Cinebar find is indicative of an easterly V23 flight path, but supports a Western Flight Path?

Holy crap, do I want some of what you're drinking!  :rofl:

In all seriousness, as I have stated before, you seem to be very, very hung up on the accuracy of the penciled flight path on the yellow map. I don't think that map was in any way intended to be the definitive guide to where 305 was. In fact, other maps have been posted on here by georger that demonstrate much greater accuracy and care. The yellow map is a rough draft by the FBI, not a final copy. That's important to keep in mind as you parse people's words about this topic.

Sometimes you use a scalpel. Sometimes you use an axe. The trick is to know the difference.

Chaucer,

So you have now come out of the closet and are claiming that the FBI flight path depicted on the yellow chart is not necessarily the actual FBI flight path?

And you are also claiming that Georger has posted a more accurate version of the FBI flight path?  Do you or Georger happen to have a copy of this more accurate FBI flight path or know where it came from?

You and Georger seem to be living proof that the less you know about a subject the more qualified you are to make claims without supporting evidence.

As usual nobody has any idea what in hell you are yammering about! More accurate flight path? Flight path to Where? Flight path to Ninny Nanny Noo Noo Land?

Rest well R99.  :offtopicman:
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3383 on: October 17, 2020, 02:35:51 AM »
This is not rocket science.

The file clearly states the guy was hunting near Cinebar, WA. It stands to reason that he was hunting where hunting is allowed, that is, at the state controlled hunting lands just east of Cinebar. Where else would he have been hunting? Certainly not in the town itself.

And yes, the fiberglass skirt suggests that the jet was east of the FBI Flight Path at that point. Which is important because it suggests that the FBI Flight Path (the yellow map which is official) is incorrect. As does the placard find. And the money find.

Not sure what else to say.

Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3384 on: October 17, 2020, 02:37:08 AM »
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The Cinebar find, wherever its actual location may be, is several miles closer to the V-23 airliner flight path than to the FBI flight path.  That means that it supports the Western Flight Path rather than the FBI flight path.

So, the Cinebar find is indicative of an easterly V23 flight path, but supports a Western Flight Path?

Holy crap, do I want some of what you're drinking!  :rofl:

In all seriousness, as I have stated before, you seem to be very, very hung up on the accuracy of the penciled flight path on the yellow map. I don't think that map was in any way intended to be the definitive guide to where 305 was. In fact, other maps have been posted on here by georger that demonstrate much greater accuracy and care. The yellow map is a rough draft by the FBI, not a final copy. That's important to keep in mind as you parse people's words about this topic.

Sometimes you use a scalpel. Sometimes you use an axe. The trick is to know the difference.

Chaucer,

So you have now come out of the closet and are claiming that the FBI flight path depicted on the yellow chart is not necessarily the actual FBI flight path?

And you are also claiming that Georger has posted a more accurate version of the FBI flight path?  Do you or Georger happen to have a copy of this more accurate FBI flight path or know where it came from?

You and Georger seem to be living proof that the less you know about a subject the more qualified you are to make claims without supporting evidence.

As usual nobody has any idea what in hell you are yammering about! More accurate flight path? Flight path to Where? Flight path to Ninny Nanny Noo Noo Land?

Rest well R99.  :offtopicman:

Just grab another drink and leave the enigma to the experts.

Cheers!
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3385 on: October 17, 2020, 09:47:24 AM »
Quote
The yellow map is a rough draft by the FBI, not a final copy.

The FBI didn't have anything to do with any of the maps made. the Air Force made the map. NWO made the maps surrounding the the LZ. NWO examined the FDR. this is probably why the FBI doesn't have much actual physical evidence about the path itself. the conclusions were given to them. I wonder if a file is sitting somewhere with all of Paul Solderlind's work along with George Harrison. they would have the foil from the FDR. it would be a gold mine.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3386 on: October 17, 2020, 10:22:17 AM »
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So you have now come out of the closet and are claiming that the FBI flight path depicted on the yellow chart is not necessarily the actual FBI flight path?
I have no need to "come out of the closet", but I can only speak for myself here.

Do I think a set of dots, hastily connected with pencil, is the exact flight path that 305 took that night? No. Do I think it generally represents the fact that 305 stayed along the 8 mile wide V23 for the vast majority of its journey above Washington? Yes.

You would have to be a fool to think that the yellow map is some perfectly accurate assessment or to think that 305 had to flight straight down the centerline of V23. The fact that you become unhinged at the idea that the FBI flight path and V23 don't perfectly align is silly, frankly. And the fact that you spend so much energy trying to dunk on this penciled route in order to bolster your own claims is equally silly.  I mean the centerline of V23 shown on the yellow map doesn't even match V23 today. Yet, you hold the FBI yellow map to a much higher standard than you do your own route. You require it to be perfect. It's not, but it fairly accurate indicates a flight down the V23 airway. Ask my fellow South Floridian Shutter to explain a hurricane's "cone of uncertainty" to you. Maybe then you'll understand.

Stop getting your panties in a twist about every little discrepancy with the penciled-in map and just accept that the plane was somewhere along V23 that night.

Quote
And you are also claiming that Georger has posted a more accurate version of the FBI flight path?  Do you or Georger happen to have a copy of this more accurate FBI flight path or know where it came from?
I have attached the map that geoger, EU, and others have posted here in the past. It clearly shows a more professional attention to detail than the yellow map which I have said before is more like a rough draft from which you can only draw general conclusions and not use to pinpoint exact locations. I'm sure the FBI possesses other accurate maps like this one. In fact, there is documentation from the FBI stating that the Air Force provided maps with a more "precise flight path". Shutter's referenced this in the past. It's not magical, dude.

Quote
You and Georger seem to be living proof that the less you know about a subject the more qualified you are to make claims without supporting evidence.
Ah, the old "appeal to false authority" fallacy. An oldie and a goodie. My first year students often make this mistake, but they have usually cleaned it up by the time their second year begins. Shame an educated man like yourself hasn't yet.

As far as "supporting evidence", I have provided more evidence here than you have as it relates to the Cinebar find, which you have merely called a "myth", "without merit" and "nonsense". In fact, your entire theory rests on the notion of a massive FBI cover up involving redacted Seattle ATC transcript and your own "gut feeling" that the pilots wouldn't have flown a very well-known airway during "that type of situation" as if you yourself have been in skyjacking situations similar to this one. Sorry, the your "feelings" and the "deus ex machina" of a conspiracy by the FBI for reasons unknown aren't "supporting evidence". 

I'll finish by stating that the notion that evidence of a more easterly path by 305 confirms a western flight path is a myth, without merit, and nonsense.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3387 on: October 17, 2020, 10:32:07 AM »
Quote
And yes, the fiberglass skirt suggests that the jet was east of the FBI Flight Path at that point. Which is important because it suggests that the FBI Flight Path (the yellow map which is official) is incorrect. As does the placard find. And the money find.

About the only conclusion based on one 302 surround the piece found is that it could possibly from 305. the placard find wasn't really close to Toutle. it's about 6 miles south and east of the town. Headquarters was closer?

How did the stairs lock on the ground if Cooper used the emergency system. that function would be damaged? the small panel with the two holes also has instructions. would there be enough vacuum to remove the placard at 10,000. how did it get torn up if it never moved on the ground. if he tore it off the wall was the missing parts still on the interior wall if so how did they miss it? a noticeable hole in the wall with a cord and handle hanging would of surely been noted when describing the interior or the operations of the stairs. Cooper would of certainly seen it even if Tina didn't tell him.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3388 on: October 17, 2020, 10:35:17 AM »
The maps indicating where Cooper jumped were made by Northwest airlines, Paul S. they will differ slightly to the yellow map.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3389 on: October 17, 2020, 10:53:33 AM »
The western path can hold merit but all the evidence they show is not really evidence since nothing has been proven. we don't know where the piece found was located. we don't know how the money got on the banks and we don't know the placard is in it's original location. to go way out on the wild side one could say Hicks played a trick on everyone? two people on the same path. one says the money was buried while the other says Cooper was a no pull and came from surrounding area's. two different drop zones with two different conclusions to his fate.

Then all the evidence suggesting the map is accurate to a certain degree.
Radar plots.
Radar operators.
The FDR.
Pilots.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 10:54:34 AM by Shutter »