Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 174954 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2820 on: September 10, 2019, 03:46:19 PM »
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If you take at look at the file below you will see these statements were written by the agents and not the witnesses. it's obviously the agent was who got the time wrong as well as the name. it's possible they recorded the statements and transferred them to documents or since Campbell appears to have interviewed them used his notes....

I am sure there is a history behind this SNAFU. Different forms of the same info being typed up by different offices and different people .... bureaucratic confusion.   

Keep in mind at the time this is all happening these people (305 NWA crew) are all new to the agents etc. Pretty easy to get these people and their titles confused. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:51:58 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2821 on: September 10, 2019, 04:03:22 PM »
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I don't believe there is anymore to that document. when I post them they are associated with the current discussion and only show details surrounding that subject.

Yes, the Campbell files are the statements taken the evening of the hijacking. I made my files public long before GG made his public. mine are redacted and his are not. Anderson is not in either of the files. I have six separate files in the vault. those are the one's that were sent to me by Reickenbach or how ever his name was spelled. he was part of a group of four that posted under the same username. he grew tired of Blevins and left his site and gave me the files and vanished...

I got my files from Gray. They are un-redacted. Anderson is named. Intro starts -

"11-24 Harold Anderson :
Harold E Anderson, was interviewed at the Reno Airport, Reno Nevada, late on the evening of November 24, 1971. He identified himself as the Third Officer & Flight Engineer on Northwest Airlines Flight #305. 
Anderson advised that according to some notes he made, it was at 2759 Zulu time or 3:59 pm Pacific Standard Time, that he received an emergency signal from hostess Mucklow on the interphone with a series of bells signalling they had trouble onboard. This is a pre-arranged signal for such emergencies and he made a notation in his book of the time of notification. "

Georger, if you typed that in correctly, then there is a problem with the original document.

First, Zulu time (which is Greenwich Mean Time) only goes from 0000 to 2400 Zulu.  There is no such time as 2759 Zulu.

Second, I believe the correct time for the start of the hijacking was 2:58 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  In Zulu time, that is 0058 Zulu on November 25, 1971.  Zulu time is 8 hours ahead of PST.

Has nothing to do with me or my typing ... or anyone's typing here.

Georger, are you saying that you did not type in the quotation?  Regardless of how the quotation got into your post, it is wrong.

Anderson was acting as flight engineer on the hijacked aircraft but he was also a NWA pilot.  That is what those three stripes on his uniform sleeves mean.  And I believe that he eventually retired from NWA as a Captain on international flights and flying a 747.

And I am sure that Anderson knew how to tell time and was probably using it in the flight engineer's log he was keeping that day.  And I'll bet that NWA typists were also conversant in the Zulu time system.

So your quotation, wherever it came from, is suspect.

It comes from FBI 302's! There are two sources for these 302's - a guy named Richenbach whoever he is and Geoff Gray.

I am assuming the agent got it wrong. Or two versions of the same notes were typed up maybe at two different offices. Its impossible to know. The info is the same but under two names; Rat vs Anderson.

The rest of the story is these docs do not stand alone but are backed up by other testimony so these two conflicting docs could be thrown out and the same info is still in play. No way to deny that. That is why multiple interviews are always a good thing.

Dont jump to conclusions just because you have a bias to sell.

Georger,

Regardless of how many sources you have for that document, the information is completely wrong.  Only people who have to resort to such false nonsense to support their wild-eyed ideas would have a use for it. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2822 on: September 10, 2019, 11:24:37 PM »
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I don't believe there is anymore to that document. when I post them they are associated with the current discussion and only show details surrounding that subject.

Yes, the Campbell files are the statements taken the evening of the hijacking. I made my files public long before GG made his public. mine are redacted and his are not. Anderson is not in either of the files. I have six separate files in the vault. those are the one's that were sent to me by Reickenbach or how ever his name was spelled. he was part of a group of four that posted under the same username. he grew tired of Blevins and left his site and gave me the files and vanished...

I got my files from Gray. They are un-redacted. Anderson is named. Intro starts -

"11-24 Harold Anderson :
Harold E Anderson, was interviewed at the Reno Airport, Reno Nevada, late on the evening of November 24, 1971. He identified himself as the Third Officer & Flight Engineer on Northwest Airlines Flight #305. 
Anderson advised that according to some notes he made, it was at 2759 Zulu time or 3:59 pm Pacific Standard Time, that he received an emergency signal from hostess Mucklow on the interphone with a series of bells signalling they had trouble onboard. This is a pre-arranged signal for such emergencies and he made a notation in his book of the time of notification. "

Georger, if you typed that in correctly, then there is a problem with the original document.

First, Zulu time (which is Greenwich Mean Time) only goes from 0000 to 2400 Zulu.  There is no such time as 2759 Zulu.

Second, I believe the correct time for the start of the hijacking was 2:58 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  In Zulu time, that is 0058 Zulu on November 25, 1971.  Zulu time is 8 hours ahead of PST.

Has nothing to do with me or my typing ... or anyone's typing here.

Georger, are you saying that you did not type in the quotation?  Regardless of how the quotation got into your post, it is wrong.

Anderson was acting as flight engineer on the hijacked aircraft but he was also a NWA pilot.  That is what those three stripes on his uniform sleeves mean.  And I believe that he eventually retired from NWA as a Captain on international flights and flying a 747.

And I am sure that Anderson knew how to tell time and was probably using it in the flight engineer's log he was keeping that day.  And I'll bet that NWA typists were also conversant in the Zulu time system.

So your quotation, wherever it came from, is suspect.

It comes from FBI 302's! There are two sources for these 302's - a guy named Richenbach whoever he is and Geoff Gray.

I am assuming the agent got it wrong. Or two versions of the same notes were typed up maybe at two different offices. Its impossible to know. The info is the same but under two names; Rat vs Anderson.

The rest of the story is these docs do not stand alone but are backed up by other testimony so these two conflicting docs could be thrown out and the same info is still in play. No way to deny that. That is why multiple interviews are always a good thing.

Dont jump to conclusions just because you have a bias to sell.

Georger,

Regardless of how many sources you have for that document, the information is completely wrong.  Only people who have to resort to such false nonsense to support their wild-eyed ideas would have a use for it.

Ok.  ;)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2823 on: September 18, 2019, 05:39:51 PM »
Some things need to be clarified here regarding the crew statements. it appears the names are correct with the statements...

1 Stripe: Third officer/Trainee

2 Stripes: Second officer/Flight engineer, Second officer is the member of an aircraft's flight crew who monitors and operates its complex aircraft systems.

3 Stripes: First officer, First officer is the second pilot (also referred to as the co-pilot) of an aircraft. Assist the captain through flight planning and updating communication and flight mechanisms.

4 Stripes: Captain, The one ultimately in charge of the safety and operations of the flight.

Only the time is not correct in the document....
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2824 on: September 19, 2019, 02:11:50 AM »
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Some things need to be clarified here regarding the crew statements. it appears the names are correct with the statements...

1 Stripe: Third officer/Trainee

2 Stripes: Second officer/Flight engineer, Second officer is the member of an aircraft's flight crew who monitors and operates its complex aircraft systems.

3 Stripes: First officer, First officer is the second pilot (also referred to as the co-pilot) of an aircraft. Assist the captain through flight planning and updating communication and flight mechanisms.

4 Stripes: Captain, The one ultimately in charge of the safety and operations of the flight.

Only the time is not correct in the document....

Here are some "alternate facts" for the stripes in the 1971 time frame.

1 Stripe - Head of the cabin crew.

2 Stripes - Flight Engineer and possibly also the Navigator and Radio Operator if they were required for the specific aircraft operation.

3 Stripes - Rated Co-Pilot but not a rated Captain.

4 Stripes - Rated Captain.

There was no such thing as a "trainee" cockpit rating.

On extended flights exceeding the 8 hours flying time per day permitted by FAA Regulations, two rated Captains would be required and maybe additional Rated Co-Pilots.  A Rated Captain could also act as a Co-Pilot.

Anderson had three stripes and was acting as a Flight Engineer on the hijacked airliner.  Those three stripes meant that he was a Rated Co-Pilot on some NWA aircraft which was probably also the 727.  In the early days of the jet age, an entry path for pilots to secure an airline position was to go through a Flight Engineer course and then get hired as a Flight Engineer.  When a pilot slot opened up, they could then move up to a Co-Pilot position.  I understand that Anderson was a military trained jet pilot and this would be one way to work himself into a pilots position.  In the 1971 era, cockpit crew seniority numbers ruled just about ever thing and Anderson was probably a low number on the Co-Pilot seniority list at the time of the hijacking.  Since the hijacking took place during the airline travel off season, he probably elected to continue flying as a Flight Engineer rather than being furloughed (which were notorious in that time period).  Of course, he knocked off the lowest number on the Flight Engineer seniority list.  But that is the way the system worked back then.   
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:17:08 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2825 on: September 19, 2019, 09:22:37 AM »
airline pilots have two, three or four stripes on their shoulders. This part of the uniform is also referred to as an epaulet. Well, one stripe is not normally used for airline pilots but it is sometimes used for flight trainees?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2826 on: September 19, 2019, 10:50:37 AM »
I'm aware of the cockpit duties but was thinking of the stripes to the document. that's where I went wrong....

Have we figured out how the plane was over Tbar at 8:15 and makes 23 DME miles by 8:18 according to the Harrison papers?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2827 on: September 19, 2019, 12:45:23 PM »
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airline pilots have two, three or four stripes on their shoulders. This part of the uniform is also referred to as an epaulet. Well, one stripe is not normally used for airline pilots but it is sometimes used for flight trainees?

There are no "trainee" stripes in the USA.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2828 on: September 19, 2019, 12:50:16 PM »
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I'm aware of the cockpit duties but was thinking of the stripes to the document. that's where I went wrong....

Have we figured out how the plane was over Tbar at 8:15 and makes 23 DME miles by 8:18 according to the Harrison papers?

No, but we have figured out how the plane got from Tina Bar at 8:11/8:12, which was the time of the jump (see the "FBI notes"), to the 23 DME point by 8:18.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2829 on: September 19, 2019, 02:59:05 PM »
What I have concluded through calculation and simulation is from Malay to north of Woodland is roughly 29 NM. giving a time of roughly 8:09:30. (calculation 9.6 minutes) from that point it's 14 NM to Tbar giving a time of 8:14.30.(calculate 4.6 minutes) basically between 8:14 and 8:15. now the plane must travel 20 NM to arrive at the 23 DME mile in 3-4 minutes to reach the 8:18 mark. calculation from tbar to the 23 mile is 6.6666 minutes. this would give a time of 8:20.30 which is much closer to the 8:22 reported on the transcripts. I believe I arrived at the 23 DME in simulation at 20:30 minutes or 8:20:30. it's 43 NM from Malay to Tbar.

The 3 minute mile can't be used from Seattle to Toledo area due to speed changes. I arrived anywhere between 7:59 up to 8:00 or 23-24 minutes. it's approx. 62 NM from SEA to the turning point at KTDO and approx. 64 NM to Malay from SEA. that could put the time at 8:00 to 8:01. from there it's 43 NM or 14.3 minutes giving a time of approx. 8:15:30.

If you look on the flight path map you will see the 8:15 location just about matches with Tina bar. it's just not much of a deviation with the flight path map vs any other path.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 07:01:02 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2830 on: September 19, 2019, 03:14:14 PM »
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I'm aware of the cockpit duties but was thinking of the stripes to the document. that's where I went wrong....

Have we figured out how the plane was over Tbar at 8:15 and makes 23 DME miles by 8:18 according to the Harrison papers?

No, but we have figured out how the plane got from Tina Bar at 8:11/8:12, which was the time of the jump (see the "FBI notes"), to the 23 DME point by 8:18.

What else does your ouija board say?

we have figured out how . . . ?  What new facts do yous have, that nobody elses hases!?  :rofl:
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 03:15:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2831 on: October 05, 2019, 06:42:32 PM »
New files are out on the FBI website...

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2832 on: October 06, 2019, 01:38:14 AM »
Wow. Jump time is now 8:11?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2833 on: October 06, 2019, 03:02:51 AM »
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New files are out on the FBI website...

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Can we see the WHOLE document?   Date, time, etc. Is this part of a page .... what is it? Where does it come from.

Looks like snips from the flight comms from Nov 24, 71 ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 04:20:54 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2834 on: October 06, 2019, 03:03:30 AM »
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Wow. Jump time is now 8:11?

8:11 when, what date, etc etc etc
To make any sense of this you need the context for it.
I want to see the header on this page. I am tired of guessing.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 04:19:35 AM by georger »