Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 158471 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1680 on: April 06, 2019, 01:16:24 AM »
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How did they get so far off as to not knowing the plane was 8 miles west?


Is this accurate?

What I mean is this. Does the controller watching the blip on the screen have anything on the screen that shows precisely where the blip is in relation to other landmarks.. in other words, if there was a satellite image of the ground below the blip super-imposed on the radar screen that would be a good guide. However, if the radar screen is just black with a blip on it how does the controller known precisely where the jet is in relation to certain things?

Also, wasn't this information, and subsequent flight path, super-imposed on a map after the fact? Perhaps in real time the controller didn't know precisely where the jet was relative to other locations so as to be able to judge if the jet was close to Tena Bar.

Your last sentence is correct.  It is unlikely that the controller's radar display included anything other than what appears on the IFR enroute charts.  That is, no topographical information such as is included on the aircraft VFR sectional charts would be on his screen.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1681 on: April 06, 2019, 01:19:07 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1682 on: April 06, 2019, 01:23:56 AM »
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Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

8:09 is now being suggested as the jump time, based on this. FJ says 8:09 FDR time is equivalent to 8:12 TTY time.
Any thoughts?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1683 on: April 06, 2019, 01:26:42 AM »
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How did they get so far off as to not knowing the plane was 8 miles west?


Is this accurate?

What I mean is this. Does the controller watching the blip on the screen have anything on the screen that shows precisely where the blip is in relation to other landmarks.. in other words, if there was a satellite image of the ground below the blip super-imposed on the radar screen that would be a good guide. However, if the radar screen is just black with a blip on it how does the controller known precisely where the jet is in relation to certain things?

Also, wasn't this information, and subsequent flight path, super-imposed on a map after the fact? Perhaps in real time the controller didn't know precisely where the jet was relative to other locations so as to be able to judge if the jet was close to Tena Bar.

Your last sentence is correct.  It is unlikely that the controller's radar display included anything other than what appears on the IFR enroute charts.  That is, no topographical information such as is included on the aircraft VFR sectional charts would be on his screen.
Even in 1971, I understand that the controllers could eliminate weather information from their displays that would normally appear on radar.  That is, the  display that the controller was  looking at showed information that had been processed by a computer from the raw radar data.  And the controller had the ability to determine what was shown on his screen.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1684 on: April 06, 2019, 01:36:47 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

8:09 is now being suggested as the jump time, based on this. FJ says 8:09 FDR time is equivalent to 8:12 TTY time.
Any thoughts?

The times shown on the radio transcripts are GMT times (now known as Universal Times, I think) and are the most accurate times available.  Previous posts here indicate that a "clock" was part of the FDR and it probably wasn't showing GMT time.  It is unlikely that there was a common "event" shown on the FDR and in the transcripts that could be used to determine what the GMT time was.  But the jump was at about 8:11 PM PST GMT time. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1685 on: April 06, 2019, 01:40:03 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

8:09 is now being suggested as the jump time, based on this. FJ says 8:09 FDR time is equivalent to 8:12 TTY time.
Any thoughts?

The times shown on the radio transcripts are GMT times (now known as Universal Times, I think) and are the most accurate times available.  Previous posts here indicate that a "clock" was part of the FDR and it probably wasn't showing GMT time.  It is unlikely that there was a common "event" shown on the FDR and in the transcripts that could be used to determine what the GMT time was.  But the jump was at about 8:11 PM PST GMT time.

Flyjack is saying the FDR measured the jump as a 'little bob' seen under a microscope on the FDR tape at - 8:09. From this he concludes the dz is north of Ariel as shown below ...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 01:44:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1686 on: April 06, 2019, 01:48:43 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

8:09 is now being suggested as the jump time, based on this. FJ says 8:09 FDR time is equivalent to 8:12 TTY time.
Any thoughts?

The times shown on the radio transcripts are GMT times (now known as Universal Times, I think) and are the most accurate times available.  Previous posts here indicate that a "clock" was part of the FDR and it probably wasn't showing GMT time.  It is unlikely that there was a common "event" shown on the FDR and in the transcripts that could be used to determine what the GMT time was.  But the jump was at about 8:11 PM PST GMT time.

Flyjack is saying the FDR measured the jump as a 'little bob' seen under a microscope on the FDR tape at - 8:09. From this he concludes the dz is north of Ariel as shown below ...

I don't think that is a logical conclusion.  Unless the aircraft had an "event marker" (such as used in flight testing), and it didn't, the FDR time of 8:09 may have occurred when the aircraft was still on the ground in Seattle or who knows where else it could have been.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1687 on: April 06, 2019, 01:55:50 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

8:09 is now being suggested as the jump time, based on this. FJ says 8:09 FDR time is equivalent to 8:12 TTY time.
Any thoughts?

The times shown on the radio transcripts are GMT times (now known as Universal Times, I think) and are the most accurate times available.  Previous posts here indicate that a "clock" was part of the FDR and it probably wasn't showing GMT time.  It is unlikely that there was a common "event" shown on the FDR and in the transcripts that could be used to determine what the GMT time was.  But the jump was at about 8:11 PM PST GMT time.

Flyjack is saying the FDR measured the jump as a 'little bob' seen under a microscope on the FDR tape at - 8:09. From this he concludes the dz is north of Ariel as shown below ...

I don't think that is a logical conclusion.  Unless the aircraft had an "event marker" (such as used in flight testing), and it didn't, the FDR time of 8:09 may have occurred when the aircraft was still on the ground in Seattle or who knows where else it could have been.

Interesting! Thanks and good night.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1688 on: April 06, 2019, 02:04:14 AM »
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Pieces of material with very low weight and lots of flat surface area (e.g. 727 placard) don't necessarily follow the normal ballistic drop trajectories.

How do I know? I once saw a fluttering candy bar wrapper in the air several thousand feet up as I descended in my parachute. It didn't come from prior jumpers as I was the first out on the first load of the day. I think there was a good possibility that it started out as ground litter, was picked up by the wind, got into some thermals and had been up there for some time.

I wonder if glider pilots occasionally see ground litter when circling in thermals?

I don't think there were thermals at night when Cooper made his jump, but a fluttering placard could have a very long hang time which means that winds aloft could take it a lot farther than a simple ballistic fall would lead you to expect.

377

I have seen full pages from newspapers in thermals at 7000 or 8000 feet above the surface.  I spent several minutes trying to snag it with my glider's wing tip.  But ever time my wing tip got to within a few feet of it, the newspaper would make a wild movement and get out of the way.  Apparently the wing tip affected the flow field several feet in front of the wing and caused the newspaper to move. 
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1689 on: April 06, 2019, 07:31:31 AM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

This is a very interesting comment and observation.

It is worth noting that Cooper initially demanded the jet take-off with the airstairs down. Then the pilots debated that the jet couldn't take-off in that configuration which led Cooper to relent. However, Cooper changed his mind and once again demanded that the jet take-off with the airstairs deployed. It was at this point that the pilots debated with him some more and Cooper finally agreed to let the jet take-off with the airstairs up.

My point is that Cooper "really" wanted to take-off with the airstairs deployed which I interpret as Cooper wanting to jump in the outskirts of Seattle.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1690 on: April 06, 2019, 07:50:42 AM »
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Placard update .I have done 3 tests so far. I first let the placard just drift and the next card I put a spin on it. The spin always goes straight down. Why wouldn't there be a chance of this happening 5 miles west?

Just remember that the entire air mass was moving to the northeast even if your tests suggest that the placard was descending straight down with respect to that air mass.

I'm going on record again as stating that this (the placard find location) is a very critical clue regarding the flight path. Frankly, I am amazed at how the placard find has been completely overlooked for decades. I can only attribute this to the fact that a year later the money was found and the Palmer Report was issued which got everyone thinking Washougal. Essentially the placard find got left in the dust.

Well no more.

The placard was found 0.8 statute miles SW of the FBI's flight path. In other words, into the wind. This inconvenient fact makes the FBI's flight path impossible.

I discussed this with 377 yesterday and he stated there is no possible way for the placard to fall into the wind. He stated that with a steerable parachute the most a parachutist can overcome is a 5 knot breeze. Anything beyond that you will always land downwind. Something like a placard, which possesses no rudder or controls, will always land downwind. Again this is according to 377.

377 added, if the placard find location is accurate, this establishes that the flight path is off by several miles. My extrapolation of R99's very conservative numbers and estimates, per Tom Kaye's request, puts the drift at 7-8 NM to the NE. I do not think that it is a coincidence that this flight path would put the jet slightly west of Tena Bar.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1691 on: April 06, 2019, 01:25:17 PM »
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Also..

Found info dated 18 June 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with Airstairs lowered.

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Cooper and Rataczak argued about the aircraft taking off with the stairs unlocked and partially down.  After agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the aircraft could take off with the stairs deployed. 

The FAA probably required Boeing to demonstrate that the aircraft could fly with the stairs deployed in flight.  In my judgement, the FAA probably did not require that Boeing demonstrate that the aircraft could takeoff with the stairs down.  In airline service, if they couldn't close the stairs, they would probably stay on the ground until the stairs were repaired and could be closed.

This suggests that Cooper's source of information for taking off with the stairs down came from somewhere other than Boeing.

This is a very interesting comment and observation.

It is worth noting that Cooper initially demanded the jet take-off with the airstairs down. Then the pilots debated that the jet couldn't take-off in that configuration which led Cooper to relent. However, Cooper changed his mind and once again demanded that the jet take-off with the airstairs deployed. It was at this point that the pilots debated with him some more and Cooper finally agreed to let the jet take-off with the airstairs up.

My point is that Cooper "really" wanted to take-off with the airstairs deployed which I interpret as Cooper wanting to jump in the outskirts of Seattle.

or, he wanted to jump right there and then, on the tarmac! Or even on the day before. Or even on the day before that at Minneapolis. !

In fact, you know what!? I interpret Cooper wanting to take off with the stairs down as meaning, he wanted to take off with the stairs down. Some simply think he just wanted a way to get out of the plane in case he needed to? Had nothing to do with jumping, well not jumping in the parachute sense.  ;) 

There is nothing worse than being locked up in a tin can you cant get out of! It's almost like being in jail. Angry guys outside want to kill you! Angry guys in the cockpit want to kill you! There is nothing worse than being locked up with no means of escape!

Hey! Say something that makes sense for a change?  If the plane had landed in DesMoines some would be claiming he wanted to jump in the suburbs of DesMoines! Everybody and everything has to be somewhere.  That doesnt mean that 'somewhere' is the destination. :chr2:
 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 02:00:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1692 on: April 06, 2019, 01:42:12 PM »
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Anybody have contact info for Sluggo that is up-to-date? If so, please let him know I would like contact. Thanks.

brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com.

A certain member of this site (not me) has been in contact with Sluggo within the past month or so.  Post your reasons for wanting to contact Sluggo and perhaps that member might be willing to assist you.  But don't count on it for reasons that probably won't be posted here.

I'd like to chat with Sluggo about the search, if any, that was conducted on the ground in the area far to the south of LZ-A, the Amboy-Ariel area. This "new" area would be about 3 miles or so northeast of Orchards, WA, and would include the Hockinson area, up to the Yacolt area.

It is my understanding that Sluggo and Larry Carr discussed this dimension of the case shortly before LC took leave of Seattle and Norjak.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1693 on: April 06, 2019, 03:04:33 PM »
Everyone should know by now that I'm very skeptical about things. we seem to be taking parts of evidence as fact and other parts as completely wrong. the placard is troubling without a doubt but doesn't mean the flight went a completely different direction. we are all basing the path as exact when it's not. winds tend to act differently around mountainous area's. looking over the weather around Washington shows it changes often.

Concerns surround the placard itself and it's discovery. if it remained in the same spot for 7 years. it's odd that it wasn't covered by the elements over time. especially in a forest. was the radar that far off, or was the controllers wrong when they said it never left V23? people keep claiming the FBI is wrong. it's actually the Air Force who would be wrong. they supplied the map.

while looking at 302's and see the possible jump area leads all the way to the Columbia is not enough for me to start telling everyone he landed in the river and the money washed up on Tbar. I have yet to see any transcripts that were "redacted" this would clearly show this being done. removing parts of the transcripts is what seems to be the truth when trying to explain this and not redacting them. we are basing this mainly around a one ounce card that never moved for 7 years. flying over Portland with a bomb is about the same as circling Seattle much longer with a bomb. what purpose does this serve hiding the actual path. the map wasn't shown for decades to fool anyone?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:10:50 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1694 on: April 06, 2019, 03:12:46 PM »
Little Bobs and Big Bobs vs Turbulencia:

Well it did not take long. Claimers who want to link Little Bob 8:09 with Cooper bailing should take note of the ARCHIVE OF KNOWELDGE which conceals several reports of TURBULENCIA occurring ~8:03 - ~8:10 REPORTED BY A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INCLUDING PILOTS ... Scott and Rataczak, ... re-

i ...3) The information about turbulence being the reason Scott tried to contact Cooper on the PA (for the apparent 2005 exchange) is new. I've never heard turbulence being the reason before. In fact, this turbulence thing is weird. We were told about a "curtsy" or adjustment of trim needed. We all thought this was caused by the stairs. But now we're hearing about air turbulence as the reason Scott wanted Cooper contacted at 8:05. Cooper has requested the plane be 'slowed and stabilized', Scott is trying to comply and decides to contact Cooper ... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

ii......weve known about this hack mark in the FDR tape for years. The channel was altitude. There was never anything to attribute it to Cooper jumping. The plane was in turbulence at the time. That is in all of the interviews.

iii...She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence.   testimony

iv...Data used were: Aircraft position from USAF radar data from McChord AFB furnished by Captain REDACTED ...
Time correlation from the above USAF radar information and from the NWA communications network tape recording. ... Airplane airspeed and altitude from the airplane's flight recorder. No timing data from the FDR. Irrelevant. Periods of reported turbulence were noted.


v...here's the exact text that talks about the data used. I just realized it really emphasized that military radar was used. (Although ARTCCs can be joint military/FAA, I think now the radar used for the flight path reallly was McChord, not ARTCC, although ARTCC seemed to track it...which probably says McChord also had no range difficulties tracking 305)

page 272:
Aircraft position from USAF radar data from McChord AFB furnished by Captain REDACTED
...
Time correlation from the above USAF radar information and from the NWA communications network tape recording.
...
Airplane airspeed and altitude from the airplane's flight recorder.

Tom Kaye: See, the flight recorder data used was apparently just airspeed and altitude? So I guess that resolves my question of how the data was merged. Now that I remember, my question of "merging" was before Ckret released these pages. So these pages resolved my question of how data was "merged". There was no merging of data. Data was combined, but not modified based on multiple sources of info.

It also points out that the radar data is first-order. No big reason to search for the flight recorder data until you get radar data.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:17:01 PM by georger »