Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1665943 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2145 on: July 18, 2016, 08:12:40 AM »
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Here is what always confused me. Tom's website states that the sand was only spread about 50 yards in each direction, so, how is dredge layers found in the area of the money almost 3 times the distance the FBI stated the sand was spread? I've mentioned over the years that a much larger area would be covered given the amount of material that was there...

Quote from Tom's site...

Quote
measurement between the center of the dredging sand and the money find is approximately 150 yards. In order for the money bundles to be washed up by the dredge, it would require them to be bulldozed 150 yards up the beach. This is 200% more than the stated and visual distances making it unlikely the money was buried due to dredging.

Since the only known date of dredge activity was 74 (pointed out by Georger) this would be considered early, to mid 70's, and not late 70's. either way it's one single dredge event. the only other time known would be 1986, years after the money was found...

The figure "spread 50 yards in each direction" Tom cites comes from the Benchley Report the USCE  gave the FBI in Feb of 1980. This figure is not something Tom himself has calculated or estimated. The figure is either an estimate the USCE made back in September of 1974 or "50 yards in each direction" may be the minimum amount of spreading the USCE specified in their contract with the Faxio who were hired to spread the dredge spoil. The USCE may have talked to the Fazios and looked up the old contract in 1980 after the money was found.

 

It appears to have an affect on the decision about the dredge?

Quote
making it unlikely the money was buried due to dredging
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2146 on: July 18, 2016, 09:15:55 AM »
I started the voting again for the poll at the top of this thread. we have a lot of new members, and they might want to cast there vote...
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2147 on: July 18, 2016, 11:08:45 AM »
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Here is what always confused me. Tom's website states that the sand was only spread about 50 yards in each direction, so, how is dredge layers found in the area of the money almost 3 times the distance the FBI stated the sand was spread? I've mentioned over the years that a much larger area would be covered given the amount of material that was there...

Quote from Tom's site...

Quote
measurement between the center of the dredging sand and the money find is approximately 150 yards. In order for the money bundles to be washed up by the dredge, it would require them to be bulldozed 150 yards up the beach. This is 200% more than the stated and visual distances making it unlikely the money was buried due to dredging.

Since the only known date of dredge activity was 74 (pointed out by Georger) this would be considered early, to mid 70's, and not late 70's. either way it's one single dredge event. the only other time known would be 1986, years after the money was found...

The money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980 and Mt. St. Helens blew its stack in May 1980.  Most of the ash from Mt. St. Helens fell over the Columbia River watershed.  The end result was that the ash was so abrasive that it damaged the electrical generators in some of the 15 or so dams on the Columbia and its tributaries.  The quantity of ash was so great that shipping between Portland and the Pacific had to close down for an extended period of time while the channel was dredged.

So there is a possibility that some of that dredged ash material was deposited at Tina Bar and has been there since 1980 and after the money was found and recovered.

That would have no relationship to the money found at TBar in 1980. It happened after the money find and the excavation.

But it would be there for excavations after 1980 is the point.  Palmer would not find it but later ones such as Tom Kaye would.

Potentially yes.  Didnt dredging replenishment along the Columbia stop around 1979 due to environmental concerns?

After the Mt. St. Helens eruption, the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific had to be closed due to the accumulation of ash in the Columbia.  So just where did they put the ash when the channel was dredged?  The ash may/should be a distinctive element if it was dumped on the shore area of the river.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2148 on: July 18, 2016, 11:15:03 AM »
The 1986 dredge photo shows the material being placed further up on the property. I guess the Fazio's would have to be asked if they ever replaced anymore sand on the shoreline. 29 years have past since Tom was testing on the beach from the 1980 time frame. the ash naturally falling onto the beach is probably gone by 2009?
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2149 on: July 18, 2016, 12:20:02 PM »
What do you all think about Brian's father's History Channel account of the Tena bar money find? Credible?

377
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:25:21 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2150 on: July 18, 2016, 12:31:31 PM »
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What do you all think about Brian's father's History Channel account of the Tena bar money find? Credible?

377


I believed him. even when they thought he was guilty looking away from the video. I seen aggravation, not guilt. the guy even stated he wished he never found the money....
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2151 on: July 18, 2016, 12:53:41 PM »
I'm too biased to be objective, thta's why I am seeking the opinions of other forum members.

I found myself looking for indications that he urged Brian to dig at a particular spot, and being biased of course I found them.  ;)

Just bugs me that Duane and LD are now History Channel certified as former paratroopers. It will soon be an Internet fact.

377
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2152 on: July 18, 2016, 01:24:36 PM »
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I'm too biased to be objective, thta's why I am seeking the opinions of other forum members.

I found myself looking for indications that he urged Brian to dig at a particular spot, and being biased of course I found them.  ;)

Just bugs me that Duane and LD are now History Channel certified as former paratroopers. It will soon be an Internet fact.

377

No bias on that part.  IIRC correctly, Dwayne actually said to Brian "Why don't you dig over there?".  Didn't he say he said that exact thing on the History Channel?  He didn't say why.  Maybe it was just a better spot for a fire.

That wasn't the first time, I'd suspect that he'd heard that the money was planted and someone told him where to dig.  He seemed pretty perturbed to hear that again.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 01:24:51 PM by MarkBennett »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2153 on: July 18, 2016, 01:31:52 PM »
I found Harold Ingram extremely credible... C:-)
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2154 on: July 18, 2016, 01:40:29 PM »
Is Harold Brian's father?  What do I think his name is Dwayne????
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2155 on: July 18, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »
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Is Harold Brian's father?  What do I think his name is Dwayne????

His legal name listed in documents is HAROLD DWAYNE INGRAM. 1500 Markel Street, Vancouver, Washington,
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 01:55:45 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2156 on: July 18, 2016, 02:00:52 PM »
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Is Harold Brian's father?  What do I think his name is Dwayne????

In his book, Tosaw gives the name as Dwayne Ingram on page 87.

In his book, Himmelsbach gives the name as Harold Dwayne Ingram on page 109.

You are both right.  He may have just been using his middle name.  A possibility, his father may also have had the first name of Harold.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2157 on: July 18, 2016, 02:05:59 PM »
I don't use middle names much....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2158 on: July 18, 2016, 03:06:03 PM »
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What do you all think about Brian's father's History Channel account of the Tena bar money find? Credible?

377

I think Harold is lying through his teeth - about something. It all seemed to be triggered by "that hippie couple" and "drugs".  Fuentes picked up on it immediately and classified Harold's body language as 'getting ready to fight'.

I dont think Harold is capable of telling the "whole truth" at any time. He's hiding something. Harold's second performance on the beach was better but it still had all the traits of a made up story.

Brian is the one that let it slip the "stuggling family's" major concern in the beginning was getting a fat reward. A "$200,000" dollar reward? Was the reward offered by the FBI ever that high? I dont think so!! Brian says something about a "fat reward being dangled in front of a struggling family". ? Is Brian now saying they already knew there was a fat reward for Cooper money and Cooper evidence even before they found the money? That's not the original story they gave when this money was found. They told people they had found money at Tena Bar and "what can we do about it?". They asked for help and advice, at Dwanye's work, they called a bank, and they called the Sherriff's Dept before ever calling the FBI. It was the Sherriff's Dept who told them to call the FBI - this wasn't Harold's idea!

Is Brian saying that if they hadn't thought there was a reward they wouldn't have turned the money in at all or ever called the FBI ? They even called radio stations trying to pump up support for the FBI giving them a reward.

The original story is they didnt know what they had found. They intended to redeem the bills at a bank and they tried to clean the money up for that purpose. This somehow morphs into them suspecting they had found Cooper money with a $200,000 reward, before they even called the FBI, and when Harold calls the FBI he "pimps" the FBI by saying: "do these serial numbers mean anything to you?". Harold somehow already knew he might have Cooper money! Maybe the Sherriff's Dept had suggested it. But Brian is now saying they thought a fat reward was there to get!

Im sorry to say this but I judge these people as struggling opportunists who dont take a step without trying to have some idea of what it is they are stepping into - the problem is, their judgements often turn out to be wrong. Harold himself now says he wishes they had never found the (damned) money.
   
In the HC interview Harold also lets it slip he had been to Tena Bar before, he says he discovered Tena Bar before and thought it was a nice place to "hang out" ? I believe he says. A "place to hang out" ?  What? He likes hanging out with fish and raccoons and driftwood on an isolated fishing beach less accessible than other beaches and 4.7 miles away from Vancouver!? The family's original story is they had never been at Tena Bar before!

I mark Harold as self deluded dodger and an opportunist who circulates relying on gossip rumors to support his meager lifestyle. This family is a disadvantaged family that has always relied on their luck. I dont think the money was a plant at Tena Bar, based on the forensic evidence, but I do think it's entirely possible Harold or Pat had heard through the grapevine that somebody had seen or found money at Tena Bar, so Harold took the family out there to look for it! He may have encountered somebody in one of his visits to Tena Bar, who had seen pieces of money out there on the beachhead. He now admits it wasnt the first time he had been out there - which is brand new in his story. Agent DS says when he and fellow agents got to Tena Bar "a blind man could have followed the fragments up the beach where the Ingram money was found". And Harold now says he told Brian to "try over there"!

Is Brian now saying if there hadn't been "a reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family, they wouldnt have turned the money in at all ? I guess they would have gone with their original plan to go to a bank instead? And what reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family" ? Is Brian contending the reward being offered in the Cooper case had the Ingram family's name on it ... in 1971?  This is ridiculous, but it reveals how this family thinks and operates.

Harold says he wishes he had never found the money. That part may very well be true!   :))   

I think somebody had already tipped Harold and Pat off to the idea that the money might have something to do with a 'bank robbery' or even the DB Cooper Hijacking, before Harold even called the FBI in his cocky fashion asking: "do these serial numbers mean anything to you". Harold had already talked to the Sherriff's office and people at his work - he called the FBI from his work site, according to one report. I think the idea of a reward was already in his mind when he called the FBI. We dont know if there had already been a communication between the Sherriff's Dept and the FBI, before Harold called the FBI. Harold may have been trapped at that point and had no choice but to call the FBI! In any event he was told almost immediately that the reward in the Cooper case had expired and the FBI didn't offer anything. Then Harold at Pat etal continued to be self-serving and they held back some of the bills and didn't turn in everything they had to Himmelsbach! Crystal Ingram didn't want any part of this act so she called the FBI a day later and informed Himmelsbach they Ingram's hadn't turned in everything they had ...

The question is why did Harold go to Tena Bar in the first place? Had he or Pat heard some gossip that caused Harold to go to Tena Bar to explore, before taking the family there to broaden a search under the guise of innocence and pure chance? Because the person raising the question is Harold Ingram himself in his interviews ... which Fuentes isn't buying.   
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 04:11:49 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2159 on: July 18, 2016, 03:07:34 PM »
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Is Harold Brian's father?  What do I think his name is Dwayne????

In his book, Tosaw gives the name as Dwayne Ingram on page 87.

In his book, Himmelsbach gives the name as Harold Dwayne Ingram on page 109.

You are both right.  He may have just been using his middle name.  A possibility, his father may also have had the first name of Harold.

His legal name listed in LEGAL documents is HAROLD DWAYNE INGRAM. 1500 Markel Street, Vancouver, Washington,