Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.2%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.2%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
100 Cooper lived
25 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 3606023 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3795 on: October 27, 2018, 02:49:20 PM »
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It would be really funny if Cooper's bomb was made from skydiver flares

Focus on the wiring. Tina gave three fairly detailed descriptions of how the bomb was put together. I shared those descriptions with several military ordinance people; Their conclusion:

1. Would not ignite a road flare even if an igniter (blasting cap) was at the end of the wires in the sticks. Thats surprising?
2. Would ignite dynamite especially if igniters were in the system.
3. Color of sticks not a reliable guide to dynamite vs flares. Sticks dont fit dimensions of common skydiving flares commonly used in the skydiving community ... so if flares they were road or railroad type, or dynamite.
4. The wiring fits a common dynamite bomb design!
 

« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:00:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3796 on: October 27, 2018, 02:52:51 PM »
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good point about the money testing georger. Yes I thought it was crazy when I found out the black/purple bills were from silver nitrate used for fingerprint testing.

I think you were the one who posted that, when you guys analyzed the money and found silver. So crazy.

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There is an FBI memo where they talked about analyzing under the tie knot for dust or something.
Not sure if that analysis was ever done.

Yeah it's weird they extracted DNA from the tie but nothing else. I suppose they didn't think anything else would provide useful evidence, when they did the DNA

Who is directing/requesting these tests, at different times. Following what protocols? What fool would try to pull prints off the old money, using destructive method no less!

I never could understand the silver nitrate debacle, but I had to defer to Tom so waited. To those of us who grew up in that era silver nitrate was standard protocol, first thing I thought of ... then it migrated to Gray and 'two types of silver' .... I stopped commenting at all at that point hoping people would settle down and come down to Earth! What I coudl hardly stomach was that somebody would actually use a destructive-highly contaminating method to look for prints .... on the old bills! That was not a good lab decision no matter how you justify it. Where I come from people would have been fired or demoted over some stupid decision like that. Do no harm is the first protocol!! :))

There is more to this story than has been published. Has nothing to do with silver nitrate but does involve another element found in the money at a later date.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:10:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3797 on: October 27, 2018, 03:10:47 PM »
I am very happy you all are looking closely at the tie particles. It is the lead with the most potential to actually solve the case.

There is a lot going around that needs clarification.

The posts claim the most recent data from McCrone is somehow all mine and it is my analysis being presented. The excel spreadsheets are EXACTLY what came to us from McCrone, everything in them is theirs not mine. The use of "rich" is their language presumably given in these cases to simplify things for law enforcement
Just looking at the "rich" summations will not get you very far. One has to dive into the depths of the data to find the primary, secondary, 3rd and 4th elements.
Y is not found as a primary element and will not show up in the summations. It is however found in the 2-4 columns in surprising frequency. Any assumptions that an element is not present because it is not summarized is a bad analysis.
I agree there are lots of places like road flairs and lighter flints that can pick up strange elements. It is up to the researcher though to go into the element listings and find related elements. If one thinks road flair dust is on the tie then there should be nitrogen particles on it.  We didn't find any but our search was not exhaustive, someone here might come up with a winner.
Of course we, like everyone here, thought the Ti was from titanium dioxide. We purchased the powder to compare under the SEM but it looked different than the particles. We now SUSPECT that the burnt match head particles might have created low oxygen Ti crumbs. This does not however explain the leaf spring particle which is not burn residue and is the best example of Ti on the tie. The SEM beam penetrates into the sample through the fine oxidation layer on the leaf spring particle to get the underlying composition. 
We also thought the Ti was from sponge manufacturing process specifically from RMI in Ohio. We incredibly obtained Ti sponge samples FROM RMI FROM THAT TIME PERIOD but none of the sponge particles shapes matched anything on Coopers tie.
Strangely we did not find any other examples of pure Ti in the McCrone listings.
Strangely there is a lot of stainless steel on the tie but almost no regular steel if he was in a machine shop environment.
Of course there is a lot of day to day crap on the tie. We recognized this early on and if you look at our original family tree of particles, you will see a section devoted to "Sand".
We did obtain a tie from Boeing, from the correct time period, from an engineer that worked there in the early 70's. He thought for sure there would be certain elements on his tie that would match Coopers if he worked there. Our analysis although not extensive, did not find any matching particles between the two ties. 
The McCrone data is a lot to go through in detail WHICH WE DID NOT. We put it on line to crowd source the analysis but it has been largely ignored up to now. I hope this post clarifies things and you all move on to a proper analysis and find some great stuff.

So at the moment we feel the best potential is in the Tektronix connection. This could be struck down in a heartbeat if it was found that they did not produce any color screens in the early 70's. I hope someone here can find that out.

In the last 10 years most of our conclusions have changed in response to new data. I expect a lot of them will change again in the next decade. If you want to hold me responsible for all of those claims fine but you are not much of a scientist if you don't change your conclusions in the face of new data.

Tom Kaye

 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3798 on: October 27, 2018, 03:14:06 PM »
Thank you Tom
Good extra info.
Maybe put this note on your website too? so others don't bug you with same detail?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3799 on: October 27, 2018, 03:25:58 PM »
So, is the Ti you found pure Ti, Ti oxide, or Ti sponge?

I don't understand why both Ti and Ti sponge are discussed, and also why not other Ti compounds?

I really don't understand why you analyzed Ti sponge from RMI

Titanium sponge is created by applying what is known as the "Kroll process" to Rutile mineral, where the mineral is treated with a chloride compound.


Titanium Sponge is the product resulting from the application of the Kroll process on raw titanium ore. Depending on the application of this process, differing purities of titanium sponge can be obtained. The resulting impurities in the sponge usually include iron, chloride, magnesium, silicon, nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:27:28 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3800 on: October 27, 2018, 03:33:27 PM »
3 current Ti sponge producers in USA

Titanium Metals Corporation (Timet)
Henderson, Nevada

Allegheny Technologies (ATI)
Albany, OR
Rowley, UT

Honeywell Electronic Materials
Salt Lake City, UT

mostly aerospace grade.

I'm still not sure why Ti sponge was even looked at, ever?

Why was normal surface soil ruled out?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:34:14 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3801 on: October 27, 2018, 03:39:13 PM »
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So, is the Ti you found pure Ti, Ti oxide, or Ti sponge?
We found Ti, and oxide no sponge.

I don't understand why both Ti and Ti sponge are discussed, and also why not other Ti compounds?
Because the leaf spring particle was pure and sponge is pure Ti.  Ti oxides are basically useless to investigate.

I really don't understand why you analyzed Ti sponge from RMI
Because it was a source of pure Ti upstream from the alloying process.

Titanium sponge is created by applying what is known as the "Kroll process" to Rutile mineral, where the mineral is treated with a chloride compound.
Your research is limited, there is also the rarer Hunter Process which produces purer Ti at higher expense. Only RMI used that process and its main components were chlorine and sodium. There was a lot of chlorine and sodium on the tie.  (yes we ruled out table salt)

Titanium Sponge is the product resulting from the application of the Kroll process on raw titanium ore. Depending on the application of this process, differing purities of titanium sponge can be obtained. The resulting impurities in the sponge usually include iron, chloride, magnesium, silicon, nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.
Again look up Hunter Process it makes better Ti. In any case our instruments only detect down to about 1% so there could be a ton of impurities below that we would not see.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:41:04 PM by Tom Kaye »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3802 on: October 27, 2018, 03:44:50 PM »
extracting Tom's note from the above quoted post

Tom said
"We found Ti, and oxide no sponge."

I still think the range of elements says soil to me.

How did you find Ti not oxidized? That doesn't make sense to me, since it oxidizes at room temp with exposure to air.

Can you read thru an oxide layer? If so, how do your read both pure Ti and Ti oxide, if all Ti had an oxide layer? Or does it not?

« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:46:01 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3803 on: October 27, 2018, 04:34:10 PM »
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I am very happy you all are looking closely at the tie particles. It is the lead with the most potential to actually solve the case.

There is a lot going around that needs clarification.

The posts claim the most recent data from McCrone is somehow all mine and it is my analysis being presented. The excel spreadsheets are EXACTLY what came to us from McCrone, everything in them is theirs not mine. The use of "rich" is their language presumably given in these cases to simplify things for law enforcement
Just looking at the "rich" summations will not get you very far. One has to dive into the depths of the data to find the primary, secondary, 3rd and 4th elements.
Y is not found as a primary element and will not show up in the summations. It is however found in the 2-4 columns in surprising frequency. Any assumptions that an element is not present because it is not summarized is a bad analysis.
I agree there are lots of places like road flairs and lighter flints that can pick up strange elements. It is up to the researcher though to go into the element listings and find related elements. If one thinks road flair dust is on the tie then there should be nitrogen particles on it.  We didn't find any but our search was not exhaustive, someone here might come up with a winner.
Of course we, like everyone here, thought the Ti was from titanium dioxide. We purchased the powder to compare under the SEM but it looked different than the particles. We now SUSPECT that the burnt match head particles might have created low oxygen Ti crumbs. This does not however explain the leaf spring particle which is not burn residue and is the best example of Ti on the tie. The SEM beam penetrates into the sample through the fine oxidation layer on the leaf spring particle to get the underlying composition. 
We also thought the Ti was from sponge manufacturing process specifically from RMI in Ohio. We incredibly obtained Ti sponge samples FROM RMI FROM THAT TIME PERIOD but none of the sponge particles shapes matched anything on Coopers tie.
Strangely we did not find any other examples of pure Ti in the McCrone listings.
Strangely there is a lot of stainless steel on the tie but almost no regular steel if he was in a machine shop environment.
Of course there is a lot of day to day crap on the tie. We recognized this early on and if you look at our original family tree of particles, you will see a section devoted to "Sand".
We did obtain a tie from Boeing, from the correct time period, from an engineer that worked there in the early 70's. He thought for sure there would be certain elements on his tie that would match Coopers if he worked there. Our analysis although not extensive, did not find any matching particles between the two ties. 
The McCrone data is a lot to go through in detail WHICH WE DID NOT. We put it on line to crowd source the analysis but it has been largely ignored up to now. I hope this post clarifies things and you all move on to a proper analysis and find some great stuff.

So at the moment we feel the best potential is in the Tektronix connection. This could be struck down in a heartbeat if it was found that they did not produce any color screens in the early 70's. I hope someone here can find that out.

In the last 10 years most of our conclusions have changed in response to new data. I expect a lot of them will change again in the next decade. If you want to hold me responsible for all of those claims fine but you are not much of a scientist if you don't change your conclusions in the face of new data.

Tom Kaye

Tom,

Has anyone considered testing the environment in the avionics bay of a similar aircraft? When these planes were manufactured, they were, by definition, their own "manufacturing environments." If we can locate little pockets inside of the plane that are relatively undisturbed, we may find many of these particles there from techs installing/replacing, drilling, screwing, etc.

Brian
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3804 on: October 27, 2018, 04:54:57 PM »
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I am very happy you all are looking closely at the tie particles. It is the lead with the most potential to actually solve the case.

There is a lot going around that needs clarification.

The posts claim the most recent data from McCrone is somehow all mine and it is my analysis being presented. The excel spreadsheets are EXACTLY what came to us from McCrone, everything in them is theirs not mine. The use of "rich" is their language presumably given in these cases to simplify things for law enforcement
Just looking at the "rich" summations will not get you very far. One has to dive into the depths of the data to find the primary, secondary, 3rd and 4th elements.
Y is not found as a primary element and will not show up in the summations. It is however found in the 2-4 columns in surprising frequency. Any assumptions that an element is not present because it is not summarized is a bad analysis.
I agree there are lots of places like road flairs and lighter flints that can pick up strange elements. It is up to the researcher though to go into the element listings and find related elements. If one thinks road flair dust is on the tie then there should be nitrogen particles on it.  We didn't find any but our search was not exhaustive, someone here might come up with a winner.
Of course we, like everyone here, thought the Ti was from titanium dioxide. We purchased the powder to compare under the SEM but it looked different than the particles. We now SUSPECT that the burnt match head particles might have created low oxygen Ti crumbs. This does not however explain the leaf spring particle which is not burn residue and is the best example of Ti on the tie. The SEM beam penetrates into the sample through the fine oxidation layer on the leaf spring particle to get the underlying composition. 
We also thought the Ti was from sponge manufacturing process specifically from RMI in Ohio. We incredibly obtained Ti sponge samples FROM RMI FROM THAT TIME PERIOD but none of the sponge particles shapes matched anything on Coopers tie.
Strangely we did not find any other examples of pure Ti in the McCrone listings.
Strangely there is a lot of stainless steel on the tie but almost no regular steel if he was in a machine shop environment.
Of course there is a lot of day to day crap on the tie. We recognized this early on and if you look at our original family tree of particles, you will see a section devoted to "Sand".
We did obtain a tie from Boeing, from the correct time period, from an engineer that worked there in the early 70's. He thought for sure there would be certain elements on his tie that would match Coopers if he worked there. Our analysis although not extensive, did not find any matching particles between the two ties. 
The McCrone data is a lot to go through in detail WHICH WE DID NOT. We put it on line to crowd source the analysis but it has been largely ignored up to now. I hope this post clarifies things and you all move on to a proper analysis and find some great stuff.

So at the moment we feel the best potential is in the Tektronix connection. This could be struck down in a heartbeat if it was found that they did not produce any color screens in the early 70's. I hope someone here can find that out.

In the last 10 years most of our conclusions have changed in response to new data. I expect a lot of them will change again in the next decade. If you want to hold me responsible for all of those claims fine but you are not much of a scientist if you don't change your conclusions in the face of new data.

Tom Kaye

Tektronix made scopes with CRT's back into the 50's..

this model from 1955-1973, many others

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but so did other's, Bendix made radar systems with CRT's..

interesting info about CRT phosphors and use.. 

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The other problem is the equipment is also used and maintained by "electronics techs"..
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 05:33:02 PM by FLYJACK »
 
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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3805 on: October 27, 2018, 05:52:01 PM »

For Snow,

Our instruments read through the oxide layer. The SEM electron beam penetrates the sample according to the electron volts the beam is set at. To determine if it has an oxide layer over pure, you turn up the voltage so it penetrates deeper. If it is a pure oxide the ratio of O to Ti stays the same, if it is only a coating then the Ti goes up in proportion.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3806 on: October 27, 2018, 06:34:03 PM »
Snow, you coming to the conference? I'd love to see a dialogue between you and Tom on this subject. I agree with TK that the tie and its particles are currently the hotsiest-totsiest clue going. Not to give short drift to the money, but that subject is so soggy...
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3807 on: October 27, 2018, 11:35:43 PM »
Funny Bruce, I was thinking there's an article of some sort that would be perfect for you

I'm wondering if people have created myths in their minds here.

The SS and some Al particles clearly reflect human manipulation, machining or otherwise.

Its easy to assume that means any mention of Ti means there are also obvious human-manipulated Ti pieces, like metal shavings.

But is that false? I've seen no pictures.

And is the rate earth stuff overstated? Like Yttrium.

There are no spiral chips of pure Ti..no machining.

Read Tom's web page and tell me if I'm wrong.

The smushed Ti and SS can have other explanations.

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Snow, you coming to the conference? I'd love to see a dialogue between you and Tom on this subject. I agree with TK that the tie and its particles are currently the hotsiest-totsiest clue going. Not to give short drift to the money, but that subject is so soggy...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 01:25:36 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3808 on: October 27, 2018, 11:39:12 PM »
Also, I can't help but notice that Vietnam is being a huge rare earth exporter in modern times.

I wonder if that means the large rare earth deposits lead to more rare earth minerals in average soil.

There are more rare earth minerals in the West and Northwest...and so are more mines (Ti say)...
So big rare earth/heavy metal reserves seems, in my mind, to lead to higher average concentrations in surface soil

I'm talking about minerals in soil. Could be mixed with organic stuff, or just sandy  etc.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3809 on: October 27, 2018, 11:40:04 PM »
okay thanks Tom. I didn't know the details of how that works.

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For Snow,

Our instruments read through the oxide layer. The SEM electron beam penetrates the sample according to the electron volts the beam is set at. To determine if it has an oxide layer over pure, you turn up the voltage so it penetrates deeper. If it is a pure oxide the ratio of O to Ti stays the same, if it is only a coating then the Ti goes up in proportion.