Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1415351 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6585 on: July 02, 2021, 12:10:09 AM »
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Yes, while the FBI flight path shows sharp turns based on connecting the dots, this wouldn’t have actually been the case. That said, with the aft stairs down and the plane banking into the wind, what kind of effect would that have had on the plane?

Chaucer, You are missing the point completely!  The plane was not "banking into the wind"!  The plane didn't have the slightest idea where the winds aloft were coming from.  Again, and again, and again, you have got to understand that once the airplane gets off the ground and out of the ground effect the aerodynamics of the airplane are independent of the winds regardless of whether they are the ground winds or the winds aloft.

But the winds aloft must be considered in the navigation of the airplane.
After Battleground the plane turned to the southwest - into the SE winds. That's all I'm saying.

Chaucer, the winds were from the SOUTHWEST.  They were actually measured from the SOUTHWEST as the data Tom Kaye dug up plainly shows, they were forecast to be from the SOUTHWEST as the data put out by the FAA for flight planning plainly shows, and there is absolutely nothing believable to suggest that they were from any other direction.

Further, there is nothing to suggest that a so-called Captain Bohan was actually airborne that evening.  So you can ignore his claims which were made about nine years after the hijacking.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6586 on: July 02, 2021, 12:17:51 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6587 on: July 02, 2021, 12:19:34 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?

so far no! I wish I did. One of these gauges has to be a pressure gauge? Im guessing the bottom gauge ???

Shutter may know ?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 12:23:03 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6588 on: July 02, 2021, 12:31:34 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?

so far no! I wish I did. One of these gauges has to be a pressure gauge? Im guessing the bottom gauge ???

Instead of a "pressure gage", I would suggest "altimeter" (which, of course, is actually a "pressure gage" calibrated in feet).  One of the gages seems to be a "modulo 12" arrangement which would be a clock.  The one with a dual scale might be an airspeed indicator, but I see no need for one there since they can just ask the cockpit what the airspeed is.  But better pictures are going to be needed to determine exactly what these gages are. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6589 on: July 02, 2021, 12:33:26 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?

so far no! I wish I did. One of these gauges has to be a pressure gauge? Im guessing the bottom gauge ???

Instead of a "pressure gage", I would suggest "altimeter" (which, of course, is actually a "pressure gage" calibrated in feet).  One of the gages seems to be a "modulo 12" arrangement which would be a clock.  The one with a dual scale might be an airspeed indicator, but I see no need for one there since they can just ask the cockpit what the airspeed is.  But better pictures are going to be needed to determine exactly what these gages are.

Altimeter would work.... good observations... but I doubt anything was recorded, just for visual use. Technology of the day. I see no strip chart recorder etc ... I dont recall anyone on the TAG team mentioning recordings or data that was kept except for the FDR tape ...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 12:36:25 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6590 on: July 02, 2021, 12:37:38 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?

so far no! I wish I did. One of these gauges has to be a pressure gauge? Im guessing the bottom gauge ???

Instead of a "pressure gage", I would suggest "altimeter" (which, of course, is actually a "pressure gage" calibrated in feet).  One of the gages seems to be a "modulo 12" arrangement which would be a clock.  The one with a dual scale might be an airspeed indicator, but I see no need for one there since they can just ask the cockpit what the airspeed is.  But better pictures are going to be needed to determine exactly what these gages are.

I am still foggy on this FDR - does it record cabin pressure or any other pressure events ?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6591 on: July 02, 2021, 02:16:33 AM »
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Blk and white version of the stairwell instrument - TAG test. What did these three instruments measure?

Do you have a better picture of the instruments?

so far no! I wish I did. One of these gauges has to be a pressure gauge? Im guessing the bottom gauge ???

Instead of a "pressure gage", I would suggest "altimeter" (which, of course, is actually a "pressure gage" calibrated in feet).  One of the gages seems to be a "modulo 12" arrangement which would be a clock.  The one with a dual scale might be an airspeed indicator, but I see no need for one there since they can just ask the cockpit what the airspeed is.  But better pictures are going to be needed to determine exactly what these gages are.

I am still foggy on this FDR - does it record cabin pressure or any other pressure events ?

The FDR on this aircraft would probably be the one that was originally installed on the aircraft when it was built which was about 1965.  As such, it was probably a very early model FDR with a relatively limited number of performance and engine factors being recorded.  But altitude as indicated by the altimeter should definitely have been recorded.  I doubt if cabin pressure would be recorded. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6592 on: July 02, 2021, 02:47:04 AM »
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Yes, while the FBI flight path shows sharp turns based on connecting the dots, this wouldn’t have actually been the case. That said, with the aft stairs down and the plane banking into the wind, what kind of effect would that have had on the plane?

Chaucer, You are missing the point completely!  The plane was not "banking into the wind"!  The plane didn't have the slightest idea where the winds aloft were coming from.  Again, and again, and again, you have got to understand that once the airplane gets off the ground and out of the ground effect the aerodynamics of the airplane are independent of the winds regardless of whether they are the ground winds or the winds aloft.

But the winds aloft must be considered in the navigation of the airplane.
After Battleground the plane turned to the southwest - into the SE winds. That's all I'm saying.

Chaucer, the winds were from the SOUTHWEST.  They were actually measured from the SOUTHWEST as the data Tom Kaye dug up plainly shows, they were forecast to be from the SOUTHWEST as the data put out by the FAA for flight planning plainly shows, and there is absolutely nothing believable to suggest that they were from any other direction.

Further, there is nothing to suggest that a so-called Captain Bohan was actually airborne that evening.  So you can ignore his claims which were made about nine years after the hijacking.
Yes, typo on my part. And if we actually want to be pedantic, they were actually measured from the south for most of the evening.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6593 on: July 02, 2021, 01:56:43 PM »
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Yes, while the FBI flight path shows sharp turns based on connecting the dots, this wouldn’t have actually been the case. That said, with the aft stairs down and the plane banking into the wind, what kind of effect would that have had on the plane?

Chaucer, You are missing the point completely!  The plane was not "banking into the wind"!  The plane didn't have the slightest idea where the winds aloft were coming from.  Again, and again, and again, you have got to understand that once the airplane gets off the ground and out of the ground effect the aerodynamics of the airplane are independent of the winds regardless of whether they are the ground winds or the winds aloft.

But the winds aloft must be considered in the navigation of the airplane.
After Battleground the plane turned to the southwest - into the SE winds. That's all I'm saying.

Chaucer, the winds were from the SOUTHWEST.  They were actually measured from the SOUTHWEST as the data Tom Kaye dug up plainly shows, they were forecast to be from the SOUTHWEST as the data put out by the FAA for flight planning plainly shows, and there is absolutely nothing believable to suggest that they were from any other direction.

Further, there is nothing to suggest that a so-called Captain Bohan was actually airborne that evening.  So you can ignore his claims which were made about nine years after the hijacking.
Yes, typo on my part. And if we actually want to be pedantic, they were actually measured from the south for most of the evening.

Which winds are you saying were from the south?  Everything that I have seen on the winds aloft indicate that they were from the southwest (or about 225 degrees).
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6594 on: July 02, 2021, 03:37:49 PM »
At 8pm the winds at Portland Airport was 5mph from the SE. By 11pm they had shifted to the SW. It stands to reason that sometime between 8pm and 11Pm the winds were blowing from the south for a period of time.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 03:40:39 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6595 on: July 02, 2021, 04:01:39 PM »
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At 8pm the winds at Portland Airport was 5mph from the SE. By 11pm they had shifted to the SW. It stands to reason that sometime between 8pm and 11Pm the winds were blowing from the south for a period of time.



Wonderful!  Wonderful!  Do you have the ground winds for Paris and London also? 

Unfortunately, the airliner was not on the ground at Portland International Airport which is 30 feet above sea level.  Instead, it was at 10,000 feet above sea level as it passed through the Portland/Vancouver area and the winds there were 30 to 35 Knots from the southwest (225 degrees true).
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6596 on: July 02, 2021, 05:59:47 PM »
Do you have the winds aloft for Ariel? Battleground? Orchards? Portland?

Please share.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6597 on: July 02, 2021, 06:42:35 PM »
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Do you have the winds aloft for Ariel? Battleground? Orchards? Portland?

Please share.

As I have mentioned to you several times before, you need to visit the FAA's web page and download and read their free publications on aviation weather and aircraft navigation.  You seem to have an aversion to doing basic research.

Any 16-year-old boy or girl who has taken a ground school course to prepare for the private pilot written examination could serve as a tutor for you.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6598 on: July 02, 2021, 07:07:33 PM »
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Keep in mind that they were doing very gentle turns, not even at a standard two-minute turn rate...  ...In my opinion, the airflow change over the rear part of the fuselage and the stairs would be absolutely minimal during these turns. 


I think someone posed a question regarding how the aircraft turning might affect the 'oscillations' or 'pressure bumps', and that is what I was addressing. You're right in that if Chaucer was considering the 'winds aloft', that that is irrelevant. But the plane certainly banks into the RELATIVE wind as it turns. In a turn, you throw a bit of bank, a bit of 'up' pitch, and use the rudder to keep from climbing. To whatever degree there is 'up' pitch, there would be increased air pressure on the bottom of the tail. That would affect how the door/stairs might move. However minimal or subtle that might be.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6599 on: July 02, 2021, 07:12:53 PM »
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We know Boeing researched drops being conducted with the 727.


Remember that in any intentional cargo drops or jumps, the door/stair assembly would be removed, and the plane would just be flying with the open doorway, so there would be no oscillations or pressure what-nots caused by door movement.