Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1461068 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4995 on: November 05, 2019, 05:05:31 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If we are to point fingers it appears the FBI also believes the placard was outside...they were told it was outside by the rear door..that's the bulkhead door to the stairs which is basically outside of the cabin. the biggest problem is zero pictures of any plane with this placard.

The other strange thing is the lack of proof a placard was even missing. this was mentioned years later and it's full of contradicting statements in the 302's and the newspaper. it was noticed missing two days later, it was missing six weeks later. the placard was found 12 miles east of Kelso.

We do know the emergency handle with the lock wire is next to the normal stair release in the stairwell. the stairs can be operated from the ground underneath the plane as well and has a emergency pump if the hydraulics fail. you can see that in the diagram below..

FJ seems to be going with the FBI interpretation. In addition, none of the TAG team photos of the stairwell and at the rear door location show the found placard in place. Or it is missing where it should be in the photos of those locations, wherever the correct place is!

Until somebody comes up with a definitive statement about where the placard should have been on 305, no solution is possible.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 05:15:27 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4996 on: November 05, 2019, 05:38:14 AM »
we do know the placard was made for the 727. the details on the placard match the emergency function in the stairwell. if it did come from 305 it would of been somewhere around the controls. it is classified as a marker vs a placard and also states its goes with a 737 and the 707. a possible solution would be finding a stew or a mechanic from that period who could possibly answer the question.

The second document states NWO explains the decal probably came off when the stairs were lowered. this was someone who was on the plane during the testing and states that "decals" came off the aircraft and goes further to say a similar event could of happened during the hijacking implying another placard was in place after the hijacking and losing another one after the hijacking during the testing. one newspaper did say they were not sure. this is a little hard to believe. was the placard just hanging on the wall like a picture frame? it doesn't make sense it would come off so easily.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 06:05:32 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4997 on: November 05, 2019, 05:45:50 AM »
The pictures we have during the testing show the inside of the stairwell but the door for the normal stair release is open blocking the view of where the emergency panel is located. that really ticked me off. there is writing on the panel but they could of had the larger placard as well. nothing in the 302's and searching the plane suggest the placard was missing or the panel was pulled off to the emergency handle. a hole in the wall should of been noticed to anyone looking in the stairwell.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 06:10:46 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4998 on: November 05, 2019, 11:03:53 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
we do know the placard was made for the 727. the details on the placard match the emergency function in the stairwell. if it did come from 305 it would of been somewhere around the controls. it is classified as a marker vs a placard and also states its goes with a 737 and the 707. a possible solution would be finding a stew or a mechanic from that period who could possibly answer the question.

The second document states NWO explains the decal probably came off when the stairs were lowered. this was someone who was on the plane during the testing and states that "decals" came off the aircraft and goes further to say a similar event could of happened during the hijacking implying another placard was in place after the hijacking and losing another one after the hijacking during the testing. one newspaper did say they were not sure. this is a little hard to believe. was the placard just hanging on the wall like a picture frame? it doesn't make sense it would come off so easily.

First, just for the record, the 707 didn't have an aft stair case.  So how could this placard apply to it?

Second, if the placard was on the exterior skin of the aircraft, it would probably be on there forever and would require solvents and a lot of elbow grease to get it off.

Finally, placards were cheap and I doubt if any money would be saved making placards that were common to all Boeing aircraft, unless they used the very same hardware or such.  It would be better to make placards that were unique to each aircraft to prevent confusion by personnel.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4999 on: November 05, 2019, 01:48:49 PM »
Shutter wrote: " we also know from testing that very little wind or disturbance takes place in the stairwell. how would a placard come off so easy? these decals should be expected to work vs fail. I would assume similar to stickers put on vehicles being towed. they are very hard to get off. hopefully, more documents will follow....regardless to the newspaper. the decal is very thin and not a heavy plastic. it very obvious to see this."

I've been on tailgates and stairwells (C 130, DC 9, CASA 212, Short Skyvan, etc) and can confirm that they are not turbulent locations in flight. Quite calm in fact. I was surprised when I first experienced this.

I liked Georger's Robert Frost adaptation.

So looking at the data presented so far, if I want a 727 airstair placard, all I need to do is walk around rural WA. It shouldn't take too long to find one. My son, now 30, was always very optimistic. At age 3 1/2 he was walking with me in a bayside industrial area in SF and spotted a twenty dollar bill in the gutter. There was nobody in sight and no clues as to ownership. He asked if it was a dollar and I said it was much more than a dollar. He asked if he could keep it and I said yes, since we had no way to give it back to the person who lost it. After another half hour of walking I said it was time to head home. NO DADDY he protested. Why? I asked. Because Daddy if we just keep looking we will find another one.   ;)

377
 
The following users thanked this post: Robert99

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5000 on: November 05, 2019, 01:55:10 PM »
There is several companies that are authorized to sell Boeing placards/markers (PMA parts). all of them state the placard is for the 727/707/737.

I looked at the 707 briefly the other day, it appears to have an electric collapsible stair on the back side of the aircraft. how it would have an emergency system is beyond me.

377, to date only one emergency placard has been found. the other "decal" was never verified being the same as the Hicks find..
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5001 on: November 05, 2019, 02:06:26 PM »
Quote
I've been on tailgates and stairwells (C 130, DC 9, CASA 212, Short Skyvan, etc) and can confirm that they are not turbulent locations in flight. Quite calm in fact. I was surprised when I first experienced this.

Either Boeing or NWO states in the 302 believing the pressure change caused the placard to escape. I don't find this to be plausible?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 02:06:46 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5002 on: November 05, 2019, 02:07:17 PM »
Here is what I know:

1) The placard was a decal.
2) The placard was affixed near the top of the stairs.
3) The placard was not affixed on the outside of the fuselage.

I am purchasing an emergency exit placard exactly like the one from Cooper's jet.

You can see images of the placard (front and back) at the following link because I cannot load the pictures onto the forum site.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
The following users thanked this post: Bruce A. Smith, Robert99

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5003 on: November 05, 2019, 02:08:53 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Shutter wrote: " we also know from testing that very little wind or disturbance takes place in the stairwell. how would a placard come off so easy? these decals should be expected to work vs fail. I would assume similar to stickers put on vehicles being towed. they are very hard to get off. hopefully, more documents will follow....regardless to the newspaper. the decal is very thin and not a heavy plastic. it very obvious to see this."

I've been on tailgates and stairwells (C 130, DC 9, CASA 212, Short Skyvan, etc) and can confirm that they are not turbulent locations in flight. Quite calm in fact. I was surprised when I first experienced this.

I liked Georger's Robert Frost adaptation.

So looking at the data presented so far, if I want a 727 airstair placard, all I need to do is walk around rural WA. It shouldn't take too long to find one. My son, now 30, was always very optimistic. At age 3 1/2 he was walking with me in a bayside industrial area in SF and spotted a twenty dollar bill in the gutter. There was nobody in sight and no clues as to ownership. He asked if it was a dollar and I said it was much more than a dollar. He asked if he could keep it and I said yes, since we had no way to give it back to the person who lost it. After another half hour of walking I said it was time to head home. NO DADDY he protested. Why? I asked. Because Daddy if we just keep looking we will find another one.   ;)

377

One day after a wind storm a few years ago, I found about one-third of a $20 bill in my yard.  I still have that and continue to check my yard after ever new wind storm hoping that the other two-thirds will turn up. 
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5004 on: November 05, 2019, 02:11:08 PM »
Quote
I am purchasing an emergency exit placard exactly like the one from Cooper's jet.

$25? that's the quote I got...
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5005 on: November 05, 2019, 02:15:13 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what I know:

1) The placard was a decal.
2) The placard was affixed near the top of the stairs.
3) The placard was not affixed on the outside of the fuselage.

I am purchasing an emergency exit placard exactly like the one from Cooper's jet.

You can see images of the placard (front and back) at the following link because I cannot load the pictures onto the forum site.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Based on the wording in the placard, it would probably be placed next to the access door it mentions.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5006 on: November 05, 2019, 02:22:43 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what I know:

1) The placard was a decal.
2) The placard was affixed near the top of the stairs.
3) The placard was not affixed on the outside of the fuselage.

I am purchasing an emergency exit placard exactly like the one from Cooper's jet.

You can see images of the placard (front and back) at the following link because I cannot load the pictures onto the forum site.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Is this a decal? Thin vs a thicker placard? Mounted how - has adhesive on the back?

The placard was affixed near the top of the stairs. Near an emergency stairs activation handle used for lowering the stairs? Which side of the door - right or left facing the door from the stairs?

Attached is a photo showing a rear stairs activation handle with a placard above it, right side of door. Was the placard and handle in the same place on Cooper's 727? If this is incorrect where would the stairs handle and placard have been located in this photo?

* I think you may been right about all of this.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5007 on: November 05, 2019, 02:23:57 PM »
This puts a fork in the "placard was from another jet" conspiracy theory.

The airstairs had to be deployed in-flight for the placard to separate from the jet.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5008 on: November 05, 2019, 02:24:13 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what I know:

1) The placard was a decal.
2) The placard was affixed near the top of the stairs.
3) The placard was not affixed on the outside of the fuselage.

I am purchasing an emergency exit placard exactly like the one from Cooper's jet.

You can see images of the placard (front and back) at the following link because I cannot load the pictures onto the forum site.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Based on the wording in the placard, it would probably be placed next to the access door it mentions.

Which is where !?
Post a photo!
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5009 on: November 05, 2019, 02:24:25 PM »
Quote
Based on the wording in the placard, it would probably be placed next to the access door it mentions.

Correct. you can see the emergency panel in this photo FJ found...

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Here is another ...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 02:26:21 PM by Shutter »