Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.2%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.2%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
100 Cooper lived
25 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 3600150 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3900 on: November 10, 2018, 10:41:37 AM »
Paul Cini didn't jump
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In September 1970, while downing shots of vodka in his Victoria, British Columbia, apartment, Cini had watched a television news segment about a failed hijacking for ransom. In the midst of the story, his alcohol-fuzzed mind somehow managed to produce a eureka moment: The best way for a hijacker to escape justice was not to fly abroad, but rather to jump from the plane.

Cini boarded Flight 812 in Calgary with a bag containing everything he thought he would need to pull off the hijacking and then survive in the wilderness after jumping from the plane: a sawed-off shotgun, dynamite, a sheepskin rope, a collapsible shovel, a pup tent, candy bars, hiking boots, and a dark-blue parachute wrapped in a paper bag. After downing several Screwdrivers, he brandished the weapons and announced that he was a member of the Irish Republican Army who would blow up the DC-8 unless he was given $1.5 million and passage to Ireland. The plane landed in Great Falls, Mont., where Cini received all the cash that Air Canada could muster on short notice-a mere $50,000. Unlike fellow hijacker Arthur Gates Barkley, who had freaked out when TWA shorted him by $99,899,250, Cini didn't mind the lesser ransom.

The DC-8 was en route back to Calgary to refuel when Cini told the crew to open one of the emergency exits so he could jump to freedom. But try as he might, Cini couldn't undo the twine that he had used to wrap his parachute-the knot was too tight, especially for a man whose fine motor skills were impaired by copious amounts of liquor.

The frustrated Cini asked one of the pilots to lend him a sharp instrument to cut free his parachute. When the pilot offered him the DC-8's fire ax, Cini absentmindedly laid down his shotgun to accept it. Seeing that the hijacker was now unarmed, the pilot kicked away the shotgun and grabbed Cini by the throat. Another crew member took the ax and smashed it into Cini's head, fracturing his skull.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3901 on: November 10, 2018, 10:50:51 AM »
Edward Ferdinand Hartz was on the Boeing airstairs/air drop test team

He died in 2008. Kick-ass Boeing test pilot

Edward F. HARTZ Retired Boeing Test Pilot, Edward F. Hartz, of Roche Harbor, WA, passed away Feb. 6, 2008 at 93 years of age. He was born in Alberta, Canada, and raised near Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. He married Doris Young of Coeur d'Alene in 1942 (deceased in 1975). Ed had a lifelong love of flying. During WWII he trained B-17 pilots for the war effort. After the war, Ed went to work for Boeing as a test pilot. He was considered the grandfather of in-flight refueling, flying B-29's. He was appointed Chief of Flight Test, Wichita, from 1950-53. After returning to the Seattle division of Boeing, he continued in-flight testing. At one time was appointed chief instructor pilot, and enjoyed training pilots from all over the world to fly Boeing's fleet of airliners...beginning with the 707 and ending with the 747. He had a 31 year career in the pilot's seat at Boeing, and at his retirement at the age of 66 was considered the oldest test pilot in the w
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3902 on: November 10, 2018, 10:57:31 AM »
Wow!
They had Richards Llewellyn ("Dix") Loesch on the Boeing airstairs/air drop team
They misspelled his last name in the FBI memo (they spelled it Leosch)
They have his nickname right: Dix

He was a kickass Boeing test pilot. Long history at Boeing.
He was with Tex Johnston on the first flight of the Dash 80!

On July 15, 1954, Chief Test Pilot Tex Johnston, along with co-pilot Richard L. "Dix" Loesch, took the Dash 80 on its first flight. He later became the Chief of Flight Test during the development and first flights of the 727, 737 and 747.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3903 on: November 10, 2018, 11:13:06 AM »
reviewing that 6 page report on the airstairs/drop test
it was part 27 of FBI (I misspoke before)

Interestingly, they DID fly with the airstairs down. So there must have been two tests..one with airstairs, one with airstairs removed for the drop that we have a photo of. It's unclear if the same team was with both. (one odd thing we know from the FBI testing: the airstairs are pushed up during normal flight..so "down" is kind of nebulous...the airspeed keeps them pushed up if unweighted?)

Interesting text from that report. Note they talk about flying with the airstair down

"...the airstair was quite stable when it was down and no airplane control problems were experienced. No excessive cabin pressure transients were noted with the aft entry door open and the stair extended. The environment near the aft entry door allowed it to be safely opened and the stair retracted at speeds up to 300 knots."


and they talk about how there were many copies of the Boeing test reports, and so they couldn't determine who might have read the reports.

<redcacted> further stated that the Boeing test results occupy many volumes and because of the many copies made and length of time since test conducted (8 years), it is not possible to determine the names of all persons who might have had access to the test results.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 11:29:22 AM by snowmman »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3904 on: November 10, 2018, 12:24:16 PM »
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The relationship, or influence of Paul Cini upon Dan Cooper has not been explored very deeply. It could turn up some interesting information.

I believe Paul Cini is still alive living in Calgary AB...

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3905 on: November 10, 2018, 01:11:48 PM »
I always wondered how hard it was for them to remove the airstairs when they did the airdrop test on the 727.

Surprisingly there's an answer in google books
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A guy who worked at Eastern, apparently in aircraft repair, worked with the airstairs
When a plane came in with nonfunctional airstairs, they would replace them.
They kept a spare around for just that reason.

He brags about how he wanted Eastern to keep the spare in an aluminum container rather than steel, because they were always shipping the spare around to wherever it was needed, and then the broken airstair back...to save shipping expenses.

He says the container weighed 500 lbs and the airstairs weighed 500 lbs.

But it's interesting that the implication is that the airlines repair people could replace the airstairs wherever the plane happened to be..it wasn't some huge Boeing job.

So they may have just taken the airstairs off for a short time for that airdrop test...i.e. the plane didn't have to stay in that configuration for long

Also: if you think about the relative weight change of an airstairs without Cooper (500 lbs) and an airstairs with Cooper (500 + 250 lbs? = 750 lbs) ..you can see that the relative difference in weight is a lot...leading to the popping up or down depending on the sled in the FBI test.

If the airstairs weighed 1000 lbs, the effect of Cooper might be less.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 01:12:23 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3906 on: November 10, 2018, 03:37:46 PM »
Post removed.

Not relevant to DB Cooper.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 03:39:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3907 on: November 10, 2018, 04:53:34 PM »
Correct, Snow. Cini didn't jump. He did, however, bring a chute and camping gear with a case of chocolate bars as rations. He came up with the getaway idea. Cooper executed it. Authorities quickly adapted, but Cooper was the guy with the window of opportunity before they could shut it.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3908 on: November 10, 2018, 05:15:00 PM »
727 Airstairs...

On several occasions ------------- extended the rear stairs while in flight. This was done at speeds of approximately 150 knots.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3909 on: November 13, 2018, 11:16:05 AM »
Reading the FBI FOIA, many canopies have been found over the years, and they've all been ignored as being "not Cooper's"

There's an interesting question of whether Cossey misidentified the canopy in the NB-6, and maybe Cooper's canopy was actually found at some point, and incorrectly ignored.

The FBI apparently really did use the 28' diameter canopy description as gospel.
In the attached memo, a found 24' canopy is excluded, because they're looking for a 28' canopy.

What if the NB-6 really held a 26' canopy, not a 28' canopy? Could a 26' canopy have been found at some point?

Re Portland letter to Seattle, 10/19/76.
Being transmitted to Portland separately by registered parcel post is the parachute canopy furnished Portland by <redacted> and subsequently furnished to the Seattle Division.
 
On 11/10/76, <redacted> Washington, advised after viewing the canopy furnished by <redacted> that it was not identical to the one used by unsub in this matter. <redacted> the parachute used by unsub. <redacted> advised that the canopy furnished by <redacted> is a 24 foot canopy and COOPER'S canopy was 28 feet.
 
In view of this information, no further investigation will be conducted concerning this aspect of the case.
[\font]
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3910 on: November 13, 2018, 02:14:43 PM »
I wonder if Cossey might have been a "pencil packer"? These are unscrupulous riggers who don't actually open chutes for inspection and repack, they just make a logbook entry saying it was done and pocket the inspection and repack fee for a minute of pencil work and the application of a new seal. Believe me, such shady practices did exist. In most cases, nothing bad would happen, providing that the prior job was done right. If Cossey were a "pencil packer" he might have no first-hand familiarity with what canopies were inside the rigs.

Even the FAA acknowledges that pencil packing exits and warns against it.
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Pencil packing had an analog in aircraft maintenance where shady shops would certify that time-limited aircraft components had been overhauled. They would verify that they worked, perhaps make minor repairs such as installing new commutator brushes in electric motors, steam clean and repaint them but do no teardown much less a full overhaul. As the jet age progressed and old propliners were relegated to hauling cargo and drugs, the cost of complying with numerous FAA overhaul rules became daunting. Many of these propliners operated out of a section of the Miami Airport popularly known as Corrosion Corner. For a cash payment and a wink and a nod, some of the Miami shops certified components as overhauled and airworthy. These became known as "Miami Paper Overhauls".

Unless the NB 6 container was extended, a 26 ft Navy Conical is the most likely canopy to have been inside. Packing a 28 ft C9 in an NB6 would be REALLY difficult and would result in a rig with a dangerously hard pull. Not even sure the FAA approved extended NB6 containers for emergency rigs. I dimly recall something about Norman having bought two identical canopies at a surplus store. Bruce, do you know? If that's true would the canopy in the rig now residing at the WA History Museum tell us what the jumped canopy was?

Great find on the fascinating 727 airstairs docs Snow.

377
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:29:19 PM by 377 »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3911 on: November 13, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
Another FBI memo giving additional details about the Cooper canopy that we've not seen before.
date of memo was 11/31/71

Cossey confirms he packed the 28 ft canopy in the container for a 26 foot canopy (NB-6)
Canopy material is "1.1 oz." probably means 1.1 oz per sq yard?

I think 1.1 oz was standard mil spec for the time? Maybe it was thinner than the normal 26 foot canopy so fit okay?

No mods (holes) were done to the canopy.
standard length lines

side note:
2nd page of the memo also noted that "ground winds were in vicinity of thirty miles southwest"
But then it says "Estimate ground wind ten to fifteen knots from the west"
So the memo has two inconsistent wind statements.



UNSUB REQUESTED AND WAS FURNISHED TWO BACK PACK AND TWO CHEST PACK PARACHUTES.
BACK PACK USED DESCRIBED AS STANDARD NB SIX PAREN NAVY BACK PACK SIX END PAREN CONTAINER AND HARNESS. STANDARD LENGTH SHROUD LINES.
CANOPY IS TWENTYEIGHT- FT. NYLON FLAT CIRCULAR NOT MODIFIED PAREN 
NO STEERABLE HOLES END PAREN.

PARACHUTE MATERIAL DESCRIBED AS ONE POINT ONE OUNCES.

PARACHUTE RIGGER WHO PACKED CHUTE STATES CONTAINER NORMALLY HAS TWENTYSIX FOOT CHUTE,
HOWEVER, HE PACKED TWENTYEIGHT FOOT CHUTE IN CONTAINER BACK PACK,
DID NOT HAVE TYPE HARNESS AND NECESSARY GEAR TO ATTACH CHEST PACK.
CHEST PACK TAKEN BY UNSUB WAS INOPERABLE DUMMY TRAINING PARACHUTE
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:47:15 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3912 on: November 13, 2018, 03:03:27 PM »
Cooper trivia:
I suppose old news, but interesting.

Recently, there's been a case where the pilot (Jim Bob Slocum) of a 727 jumped (with a parachute) out of the ventral airstairs opening, leaving no one inside flying the plane.

pictures attached. Looks like airstairs were removed
The helmeted "people" in the seats, were test dummies.

hmm..I wonder what the flaps are at, in the picture attached

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 03:04:48 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3913 on: November 13, 2018, 03:11:20 PM »
377
In another FBI memo, they noted info on descent rates of both parachutes.
Evidently they were told the not-taken rig, with a 26 foot canopy had about the same descent rate as the taken rig with a 28 foot canopy

The reason given was because of differences in canopy design.

I think we've noted elsewhere that the Pioneer had a 26 foot canopy? I don't think we decided whether it was conical or flat round

The NB-6 with a 1.1 oz canopy at 28 foot, was probably a standard 28 foot diameter C9???
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3914 on: November 13, 2018, 03:12:32 PM »
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Cooper trivia:
I suppose old news, but interesting.

Recently, there's been a case where the pilot (Jim Bob Slocum) of a 727 jumped (with a parachute) out of the ventral airstairs opening, leaving no one inside flying the plane.

pictures attached. Looks like airstairs were removed
The helmeted "people" in the seats, were test dummies.

hmm..I wonder what the flaps are at, in the picture attached

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Ventral stairs removed,,