Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.2%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.2%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
100 Cooper lived
25 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 3606022 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3765 on: October 26, 2018, 10:11:42 PM »
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Cooper was involved in electronics..

My buddy who I've known since the 70's is a electronics nut...he told me last year to look into the medical field when I showed him the elements...the radioactive ones alerted his reason..

specialized stuff like Radar systems..
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3766 on: October 26, 2018, 10:13:50 PM »
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I think all those elements are found in dirt too.

and the printing field. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I went through the pigments and ran by Kaye, matches many but not the Ti, pigments use Titanium dioxide not CPTi.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3767 on: October 27, 2018, 12:37:39 AM »
Given the high number of Ti particles, I'm really thinking it can be from dirt/soil. How did Tom decide this wasn't some Ti oxide?
Soil can be high in Ti

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3768 on: October 27, 2018, 12:40:04 AM »
For example, the zirconium also suggests soil
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3769 on: October 27, 2018, 01:11:23 AM »
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I think all those elements are found in dirt too.

and the printing field. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Whoa, welcome back, E Vick. Long time, no see.
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3770 on: October 27, 2018, 11:08:49 AM »
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For example, the zirconium also suggests soil

I don't see "soil" in the analysis.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3771 on: October 27, 2018, 12:29:31 PM »
There are a number of good reports.
I'm going from this one currently

page 9 is instructive if you've never seen this kind of analysis before (attached)

Element Concentrations in Soils and Other Surficial Materials of the Conterminous United States, 1984

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Abstract
Samples of soils or other regoliths, taken at a depth of approximately 20 cm from locations about 80 km apart throughout the conterminous United States, were analyzed for their content of elements. In this manner, 1,318 sampling sites were chosen, and the results of the sample analyses for 50 elements were plotted on maps. The arithmetic and geometric mean, the geometric deviation, and a histogram showing frequencies of analytical values are given for 47 elements.

The lower concentrations of some elements (notably, aluminum, barium, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and strontium) in most samples of surficial materials from the Eastern United States, and the greater abundance of heavy metals in the same materials of the Western United States, indicates a regional geochemical pattern of the largest scale. The low concentrations of many elements in soils characterize the Atlantic Coastal Plain. Soils of the Pacific Northwest generally have high concentrations of aluminum, cobalt, iron, scandium, and vanadium, but are low in boron. Soils of the Rocky Mountain region tend to have high concentrations of copper, lead, and zinc. High mercury concentrations in surficial materials are characteristic of Gulf Coast sampling sites and the Atlantic coast sites of Connecticut, Massachuetts, and Maine. At the State level, Florida has the most striking geochemical pattern by having soils that are low in the concentrations of most elements considered in this study. Some smaller patterns of element abundance can be noted, but the degree of confidence in the validity of these patterns decreases as the patterns become less extensive.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3772 on: October 27, 2018, 12:36:56 PM »
I'm just randomly speculating, not a soils person

But the large amount of Silicon-rich, Calcium-rich, Salts, Iron, Aluminum, Ti-rich, Zinc-rich makes me think soil first

Then when I said all the random elements in small amounts, like Chlorine-rich, Gold, Magnesium-rich
I think soil

Titanium is the ninth most abundant metal in the Earth's crust.

Ti tends to stay in the upper soils because it's so resistant to weathering, I read.

Now that's why I'm wondering what Ti-rich means. Does it somehow exclude Ti found in nature (Ti oxides?)
If so, how?

"Titanium is not found freely in nature but is found in minerals such as rutile (titanium oxide), ilmenite (iron titanium oxide) and sphene (titanite or calcium titanium silicate)."

"Titanium metal is not found as the free element.  It is usually present in igneous rocks and in the sediments derived from them. It is found in the minerals rutile (TiO2), ilmenite (FeTiO3), and sphene, and is present in titanates and in many iron ores."

"The element occurs within a number of mineral deposits, principally rutile and ilmenite, which are widely distributed in the Earth's crust and lithosphere, and it is found in almost all living things, water bodies, rocks, and soils."
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 12:45:41 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3773 on: October 27, 2018, 12:38:44 PM »
I agree that the stainless steel particles are not "from nature"

But 377 could be right..those could have come from Hayden's parachute. Or maybe a more typical machine shop/foundry in that era...just steel and aluminum. Not titanium.
And no rare earths.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3774 on: October 27, 2018, 12:48:51 PM »
"Like aluminium and magnesium, titanium metal and its alloys oxidize immediately upon exposure to air. "

This is what I don't understand. If Ti raw oxidizes when exposed to air, how do you differentiate between that and naturally occurring titanium oxides.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3775 on: October 27, 2018, 01:33:12 PM »
They found Ti at pretty much all of the sample sites they used in the US. map attached from page 52 of the report.
Varying amounts. Darker means more.

They have separate maps in the report for each element. Some elements weren't as uniformly distributed as this one.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 01:36:35 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3776 on: October 27, 2018, 01:42:39 PM »
On the oxidation of pure Titanium

Titanium readily reacts with oxygen at 1,200 _C (2,190 _F) in air, and at 610 _C (1,130 _F) in pure oxygen, forming titanium dioxide. It is, however, slow to react with water and air at ambient temperatures because it forms a passive oxide coating that protects the bulk metal from further oxidation.

In its compounds, titanium exhibits oxidation states of +2, +3, and +4, as in the oxygen compounds titanium monoxide, TiO, dititanium trioxide, Ti2O3, and titanium dioxide, TiO2, respectively. The +4 oxidation state is the most stable. The chemistry of titanium in the +2 state is rather restricted

Here's a paper on the oxidation of commercially pure Titanium
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The aim of this work was to perform thermal characterization of commercially pure titanium in dry air to determine its oxidation kinetics and the structure of the oxide.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3777 on: October 27, 2018, 01:45:22 PM »
from that paper, on the behavior of titanium at room temperature, with air.

When the titanium is exposed to ambient air at room temperature, a passive oxide film is spontaneously formed on its surface. This passive film is amorphous, very thin (5-10 nm thickness [9]), and composed of three layers [10, 11]: the first layer adjacent to metallic titanium is TiO, the intermediary layer is Ti2O3, and the third layer, which is in contact with the environment, is anatase TiO2. At room temperature, anatase TiO2 is the most important layer in thickness and responsible for the integration between the implant and the human bone when the material is not submitted to a thermal treatment at high temperature. The surface oxide film on titanium formed in the air is so protective that the further oxidation of titanium is prevented in various circumstances and mediums [12]. Even during sterilization in autoclave under a saturated water vapor pressure at 120 _C for 1.8 ks, oxidation of titanium does not proceed [12].
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3778 on: October 27, 2018, 01:49:17 PM »
Those aluminum spiral cuttings sure say machine shop to me. Or might the just be from a home power drill used to put a hole in say an aluminum picture frame?

And how the hell did the FBI Lab miss these? Makes me question their diligence. Can anyone think of a scenario in which these particles were absent when the FBI Lab examined the tie?

I once fought and won a very heated courtroom battle over admissibility of an audio tape analysis by the FBI Lab. Their work was way below competent. I cross examined their expert. He had been pitched softballs in prior cases. I applied the full EE attack on his purported expertise.

I'm sure the FBI has real expertise in some areas but it is wrong to assume that they have it in all areas.


377

« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 01:51:50 PM by 377 »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3779 on: October 27, 2018, 01:51:41 PM »
the cuttings were smaller total particle counts? not sure

In any case, yes those are separate.

Just because you find Al and SS cuttings, doesn't mean everything else is also from human manufacturing.

That's what I'm saying. There's this assumption of single donor site for all the materials. That seems crazy to me. And assuming they are all human-manufactured or something.

I can't imagine how Tom Kaye justifies this. Unless he has more data we've not seen

For instance, no data has been released about Yttrium. I assume it's just trace..hardly any?