We’re going to Mexico City - or any place in Mexico - nonstop - gear down - flaps down - you can trim the flaps to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel but nowhere in the United states. The aft door must be open and the stairs down. The altitude under 10,000 feet, they know they can’t go over that. Cabin lights out and everyone is to be forward of the first Class Curtain.

A few observations.. Cooper demands via Tina's note.

Cooper said going to Mexico City or any place in Mexico
Cooper never said nonstop to Mexico City - he said nonstop to Mexico
Cooper said "can" refuel anywhere in Mexico - nowhere in US
Cooper said "can" trim flaps to 15, not "must"

He wanted to control the speed/elevation.
He wanted depressurized.
Cabin dark masks his movements/location.
He wanted to control his timing and ability to exit. (He mistakenly thought the pilots controlled the rear airstairs)

Appears Mexico was in range for a 727-200 in that configuration,

And he expected everyone to digest all of that - in a split instant? Eye popping split instant?

The crew would have been fully justified to reply: "Yes sir Captain major General rocket man!What brand of Tequila do you require?

Whether it could be done or not, is almost beside the point!

"Was that mustard or ketchup before the 22nd instruction after the 14th instruction?"

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We’re going to Mexico City - or any place in Mexico - nonstop - gear down - flaps down - you can trim the flaps to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel but nowhere in the United states. The aft door must be open and the stairs down. The altitude under 10,000 feet, they know they can’t go over that. Cabin lights out and everyone is to be forward of the first Class Curtain.

A few observations.. Cooper demands via Tina's note.

Cooper said going to Mexico City or any place in Mexico
Cooper never said nonstop to Mexico City - he said nonstop to Mexico
Cooper said "can" refuel anywhere in Mexico - nowhere in US
Cooper said "can" trim flaps to 15, not "must"

He wanted to control the speed/elevation.
He wanted depressurized.
Cabin dark masks his movements/location.
He wanted to control his timing and ability to exit. (He mistakenly thought the pilots controlled the rear airstairs)

Appears Mexico was in range for a 727-200 in that configuration,

The 727-200 is very recognizable versus the 100. Nonetheless, he knew damn well it couldn't fly to Mexico non-stop in that configuration. Red herring.

He may have made his prior range calculations based on the 200... but ended up on the shortest range 727... 

You don't know it was a red herring.

and it makes ZERO sense..  NONE

If Cooper knew it couldn't fly nonstop to MEX then he would have also known the pilots would not even attempt it. Why make an unachievable demand that would have clearly been rejected. That makes NO sense.

That is the same as carjacking a NY cab and saying take me to Los Angeles nonstop.. it would have been rejected.


When Cooper made the initial demand he believed it could make it to Mexico nonstop. No doubt about it.


.

He also believed they could swallow a moose! 

It's almost divorced from reality, is what it is.

Suit yourself, the argument that he knew it couldn't make it to Mexico doesn't pass a simple logic test and is not supported by any evidence.

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We’re going to Mexico City - or any place in Mexico - nonstop - gear down - flaps down - you can trim the flaps to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel but nowhere in the United states. The aft door must be open and the stairs down. The altitude under 10,000 feet, they know they can’t go over that. Cabin lights out and everyone is to be forward of the first Class Curtain.

A few observations.. Cooper demands via Tina's note.

Cooper said going to Mexico City or any place in Mexico
Cooper never said nonstop to Mexico City - he said nonstop to Mexico
Cooper said "can" refuel anywhere in Mexico - nowhere in US
Cooper said "can" trim flaps to 15, not "must"

He wanted to control the speed/elevation.
He wanted depressurized.
Cabin dark masks his movements/location.
He wanted to control his timing and ability to exit. (He mistakenly thought the pilots controlled the rear airstairs)

Appears Mexico was in range for a 727-200 in that configuration,

The 727-200 is very recognizable versus the 100. Nonetheless, he knew damn well it couldn't fly to Mexico non-stop in that configuration. Red herring.

He may have made his prior range calculations based on the 200... but ended up on the shortest range 727... 

You don't know it was a red herring.

and it makes ZERO sense..  NONE

If Cooper knew it couldn't fly nonstop to MEX then he would have also known the pilots would not even attempt it. Why make an unachievable demand that would have clearly been rejected. That makes NO sense.

That is the same as carjacking a NY cab and saying take me to Los Angeles nonstop.. it would have been rejected.


When Cooper made the initial demand he believed it could make it to Mexico nonstop. No doubt about it.


.

He also believed they could swallow a moose! 

It's almost divorced from reality, is what it is.

Suit yourself, the argument that he knew it couldn't make it to Mexico doesn't pass a simple logic test and is not supported by any evidence.

Neither is your assumption proved! You are not DB Cooper - you dont know what was in his head! Or do you? 

He made the request, that is a fact. Not an assumption.

The assumptive argument is that he was "knowingly misleading"... there is no LOGIC or EVIDENCE to support that. NONE whatsoever.

If anyone wants to stick to that assumption,, go right ahead. It is an opinion based on nothing.

.

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William Rataczak informed Cooper that the aircraft's range was limited to approximately 1,000 miles (1,600 km) under the specified flight configuration, which meant that a second refueling would be necessary before entering Mexico...

727-100 range is 3,110 nautical miles

1,000 miles is just short of the Mexican border.

Has anybody actually checked if this is true, it may have been a ruse..

Can this 1,000 range be confirmed with a SIM?? or??

Reno is about 570 mi
Tijuana MX is about 1075 mi
Hermosillo MX is about 1400 mi
Mexico City MX is about 2350 mi
.

Key is under the specified flight configuration. At DZ someone did some calculations.

Thanks, I'll check there..

I found a 2.2X increased burn rate,, (estimate)

A 727-100 at 2300 range = about 1000 miles - just short of Mexico

A 727-200 at 3100 range = about 1400 miles - within Mexico


If Cooper had assumed a 727-200, appears Mexico was in range..

.

The NWA aircraft was a 727-051 and Cooper undoubtedly had access to that information before the hijacking.

In the 1971 time frame, the airlines published a timetable, about the size of a large phone book, that listed, among a lot of other things, the equipment used on specific routes and the dates that it would be used.

Cooper simply asked the ticket agent if the inbound airliner was a 727.  This was simply to confirm that there had not been an unscheduled substitution.  The agent said yes and Cooper knew he would be getting the aircraft he was looking for.

When Cooper took a seat in the last row, he could see all the passengers on the airliner.  He obviously did not see any passengers that would pose a problem, so when the airliner started taxing, Cooper handed a note to Flo and the hijacking was on.

You don't know what Cooper knew or didn't know about that 727-51.. NW Orient ran both 100's and 200's.

but,
Nobody can explain the bad logic here..

If Cooper actually believed the plane couldn't make it then why did he demand it. Obviously the pilot's wouldn't have attempted it and he would have had to renegotiate a closer destination. If so, then why not just say Reno (or wherever) in the first place to get the plane heading South. You don't knowingly make a demand that you know will be rejected. He made the demand because he believed it was obtainable.

Guys, it makes NO sense for Cooper to give a knowingly unattainable destination that would be rejected. He believed it was achievable. If I am correct here that is a NORJAK game changer. The old opinion that he knew it couldn't make it to Mexico is an assumption based on NOTHING.

Also,
he never gave a flightpath.. suggesting his intended jump was later
he was not dressed for a PNW jump... that was plan B.
he asked for "American" currency.. suggests his destination was outside the US

.

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William Rataczak informed Cooper that the aircraft's range was limited to approximately 1,000 miles (1,600 km) under the specified flight configuration, which meant that a second refueling would be necessary before entering Mexico...

727-100 range is 3,110 nautical miles

1,000 miles is just short of the Mexican border.

Has anybody actually checked if this is true, it may have been a ruse..

Can this 1,000 range be confirmed with a SIM?? or??

Reno is about 570 mi
Tijuana MX is about 1075 mi
Hermosillo MX is about 1400 mi
Mexico City MX is about 2350 mi
.

Key is under the specified flight configuration. At DZ someone did some calculations.

Thanks, I'll check there..

I found a 2.2X increased burn rate,, (estimate)

A 727-100 at 2300 range = about 1000 miles - just short of Mexico

A 727-200 at 3100 range = about 1400 miles - within Mexico


If Cooper had assumed a 727-200, appears Mexico was in range..

.

The NWA aircraft was a 727-051 and Cooper undoubtedly had access to that information before the hijacking.

In the 1971 time frame, the airlines published a timetable, about the size of a large phone book, that listed, among a lot of other things, the equipment used on specific routes and the dates that it would be used.

Cooper simply asked the ticket agent if the inbound airliner was a 727.  This was simply to confirm that there had not been an unscheduled substitution.  The agent said yes and Cooper knew he would be getting the aircraft he was looking for.

When Cooper took a seat in the last row, he could see all the passengers on the airliner.  He obviously did not see any passengers that would pose a problem, so when the airliner started taxing, Cooper handed a note to Flo and the hijacking was on.

You don't know what Cooper knew or didn't know about that 727-51.. NW Orient ran both 100's and 200's.

but,
Nobody can explain the bad logic here..

If Cooper actually believed the plane couldn't make it then why did he demand it. Obviously the pilot's wouldn't have attempted it and he would have had to renegotiate a closer destination. If so, then why not just say Reno (or wherever) in the first place to get the plane heading South. You don't knowingly make a demand that you know will be rejected. He made the demand because he believed it was obtainable.

Guys, it makes NO sense for Cooper to give a knowingly unattainable destination that would be rejected. He believed it was achievable. If I am correct here that is a NORJAK game changer. The old opinion that he knew it couldn't make it to Mexico is an assumption based on NOTHING.

Also,
he never gave a flightpath.. suggesting his intended jump was later
he was not dressed for a PNW jump... that was plan B.
he asked for "American" currency.. suggests his destination was outside the US

.

Cooper didn't give a hoot to hell if the airliner ever made it to Mexico or not, because he wasn't going to be on it even if it did.

Assuming that Cooper actually used the term "American currency", there is nothing anywhere in the records to indicate his destination.

Your claim that the flight crew would not attempt anything other than a non-stop flight to Mexico is bullshit.  Because that is EXACTLY what the crew did.

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William Rataczak informed Cooper that the aircraft's range was limited to approximately 1,000 miles (1,600 km) under the specified flight configuration, which meant that a second refueling would be necessary before entering Mexico...

727-100 range is 3,110 nautical miles

1,000 miles is just short of the Mexican border.

Has anybody actually checked if this is true, it may have been a ruse..

Can this 1,000 range be confirmed with a SIM?? or??

Reno is about 570 mi
Tijuana MX is about 1075 mi
Hermosillo MX is about 1400 mi
Mexico City MX is about 2350 mi
.

Key is under the specified flight configuration. At DZ someone did some calculations.

Thanks, I'll check there..

I found a 2.2X increased burn rate,, (estimate)

A 727-100 at 2300 range = about 1000 miles - just short of Mexico

A 727-200 at 3100 range = about 1400 miles - within Mexico


If Cooper had assumed a 727-200, appears Mexico was in range..

.

The NWA aircraft was a 727-051 and Cooper undoubtedly had access to that information before the hijacking.

In the 1971 time frame, the airlines published a timetable, about the size of a large phone book, that listed, among a lot of other things, the equipment used on specific routes and the dates that it would be used.

Cooper simply asked the ticket agent if the inbound airliner was a 727.  This was simply to confirm that there had not been an unscheduled substitution.  The agent said yes and Cooper knew he would be getting the aircraft he was looking for.

When Cooper took a seat in the last row, he could see all the passengers on the airliner.  He obviously did not see any passengers that would pose a problem, so when the airliner started taxing, Cooper handed a note to Flo and the hijacking was on.

You don't know what Cooper knew or didn't know about that 727-51.. NW Orient ran both 100's and 200's.

but,
Nobody can explain the bad logic here..

If Cooper actually believed the plane couldn't make it then why did he demand it. Obviously the pilot's wouldn't have attempted it and he would have had to renegotiate a closer destination. If so, then why not just say Reno (or wherever) in the first place to get the plane heading South. You don't knowingly make a demand that you know will be rejected. He made the demand because he believed it was obtainable.

Guys, it makes NO sense for Cooper to give a knowingly unattainable destination that would be rejected. He believed it was achievable. If I am correct here that is a NORJAK game changer. The old opinion that he knew it couldn't make it to Mexico is an assumption based on NOTHING.

Also,
he never gave a flightpath.. suggesting his intended jump was later
he was not dressed for a PNW jump... that was plan B.
he asked for "American" currency.. suggests his destination was outside the US

.

Cooper didn't give a hoot to hell if the airliner ever made it to Mexico or not, because he wasn't going to be on it even if it did.

Assuming that Cooper actually used the term "American currency", there is nothing anywhere in the records to indicate his destination.

Your claim that the flight crew would not attempt anything other than a non-stop flight to Mexico is bullshit.  Because that is EXACTLY what the crew did.

WTF,

Cooper asked to go to Mexico..

I never said the crew would not attempt anything other than a non-stop flight to Mexico, clearly you fail at understanding the logic here. Clearly, they did.

Do you actually think any crew would attempt to fly anywhere in an unconventional configuration without checking the range... that is ridiculous.


You guys have ZERO evidence and ZERO logic for your ASSUMPTION... if you want to maintain that opinion you are entitled to but don't pretend it is anything more than an opinion based on NOTHING.

.

This is simple stuff..

If Cooper knew the plane couldn't make it to Mexico nonstop when he made the demand to go to Mexico nonstop, then he would have known the pilot's would not have even attempted it and he would have to renegotiate a closer destination. Clearly, he did think the plane could make it to Mexico nonstop when he made the initial demand.

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He may have made his prior range calculations based on the 200... but ended up on the shortest range 727... 

You don't know it was a red herring.

and it makes ZERO sense..  NONE

If Cooper knew it couldn't fly nonstop to MEX then he would have also known the pilots would not even attempt it. Why make an unachievable demand that would have clearly been rejected. That makes NO sense.

That is the same as carjacking a NY cab and saying take me to Los Angeles nonstop.. it would have been rejected.


When Cooper made the initial demand he believed it could make it to Mexico nonstop. No doubt about it.


.

It makes a lot of sense. You're a case in point of why it makes sense and why he said it. Specifically,  he has convinced you that he didn't know the 727 very well. And, he convinced you that he may have actually intended to go to Mexico--but changed his mind and jumped over the Willamette area instead.

This is precisely the response a former Boeing employee who intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle would desire.

You have failed to answer for any logic or evidence you need to back up your assumption.

I thought my answer was beautiful. It was succinct. It was insightful. It was accurate. My argument couldn't be as weak as you've suggested, after all, I did earn an A in my Expository Writing class. Well, that was a while ago though. 

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If Cooper knew it couldn't fly nonstop to MEX then he would have also known the pilots would not even attempt it. Why make an unachievable demand that would have clearly been rejected. That makes NO sense.
.

Flyjack, you have made the above claim several times.  Now you are denying that you made them.

Sorry R99, I just don't see any conflict in my statements. (the pilot's would not attempt the flight NONSTOP)

I was exposing the bad counter argument using IF..  demonstrating that is doesn't make sense.

IF Cooper knew the destination was not achievable nonstop then he would have known that the pilot's would not have attempted an unachievable NONSTOP flight to Mexico. It would have to be renegotiated and it was.

So, clearly, he believed that Mexico nonstop was achievable when he made the demand.



If I am correct on this and I believe so, then this is a NORJAK game changer..

The long term and widely held assumption that Cooper must have known that the plane couldn't make it nonstop to Mexico is based on NOTHING.

..