Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 414199 times)

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2014, 04:09:59 AM »
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Yes, Georger,

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

No! I think large organisations have a difficult time dealing with small crime, sometimes, especially when the 'bank robber' has a 727 flying at 10,000 feet at 160 knots over miles of terrain to make his escape in. 'Ever tried to keep up with and outrun a 727 ?  :)  That kind of thing tends to put people on the ground at a distinct disadvantage. And in spite of that the FBI and law enforcement have a near perfect record!

 
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2014, 09:51:50 AM »
To Larry Carr

You say:  "So, for those of you putting forward a person of interest and you are asserting it as a matter of fact, then "show me the facts" I can't hear you!!! say it louder "show me the facts!!!!" louder, I still can't hear you, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!!" Now dance when you say it, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!"

I say  " Larry you have the evidence in your FBI files that will blow this case wide open. I am speaking about the four letters sent just following Norjak to the newspapers. You have those letters and envelopes and still have not tested the stamps/envelope flaps for DNA to compare with the DNA you have of my #1 suspect (Sheridan L. Peterson). A match to the DNA from the letters would prove Sheridan was not in Nepal but rather in Portland (the scene of the crime). The stamp/envelope flap DNA is real evidence that the FBI has in their files and yet to be looked at, so "YOU HAVE THE FACTS" just study and compare and the case is closed finally. Break the case  by breaking Sheridan's "perfect alibi" that he was in Nepal at the time of the crime. I say it louder YOU HAVE THE FACTS so just LOOK AT THEM". It is almost to late but remember "the FBI ALWAYS gets their man".

Larry, I am sure you think the four letters were just from a "kook" but letter three has the salutation "The System that Beats the System". That was Sheridan's mantra that I heard over and over during his one month stay at my home and while he was doing advance planning for Norjak (ten years in the planning).

Bob Sailshaw
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2014, 04:17:18 AM »
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Yes, Georger, our work on Norjak may be only an advanced course in Zen unemotionality.  So many questions, so few facts and even fewer answers.

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

Are you saying, after all this time, that in some ways, BK might actually not be full of caca?   ;) :)

Yup.  There may be some truth to The Crazy One.

But what I think is more likely is that BK has followed closely much of our discussion, especially the MKULTRA stuff, and projected out a scenario.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2014, 10:09:37 PM »
Tom seems to have a different version on the money find. it appears he tells the story by using a long distance travel. he also includes on his site that a plant would be speculation.

Here is a quote from Tom on this very site.......

We spent most of the time on the black bills that turned out to be contaminated. Had we known that, then of course we would have ignored them and looked at the other bills. Had we been there the day they were discovered then the rubber bands could have told us more. Finding bills from the center of the stack would have also been helpful. We could have looked to see if there was sand in between the bills which would have indicated they washed up there. If they were super clean, then it would have been more likely that the money didn't come via the river.

As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2014, 10:11:31 PM »
he goes on to add....

Georger requested clarification on why we discount "natural means"

First off if you take as fact that Cooper jumped around Ariel then the money had to move 20 miles or so to get to TB.  Water is the only natural means to move the money that far.  We traced the tributaries to the Washougal and none of them made it up to the area around Ariel. The Lewis river route requires a move upstream to get to TB which would be unnatural. So unless a bird flew it there I can't personally think of any other way to move the bundles. 

Now if you want to argue that the jump was off or the flight path was different that's fine but we found no evidence that supported a different jump zone or flight path from what was presented in the archives.

PS there WERE money fragments in the FBI archive. Only a few crumbs in a match box size container.

Tom


Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2014, 10:14:24 PM »
Now, a quote from Tom's site.

If natural means provides no plausible answer, then the other two possibilities are mechanical or Fig. 7 Reconstruction of the positions of the bills in the stack when buried. The upper left corner of this bill shows a stack of fragments which were used in the reconstruction of their positions.Fig. 7 Reconstruction of the positions of the bills in the stack when buried. The upper left corner of this bill shows a stack of fragments which were used in the reconstruction of their positions.human intervention. Of those two, mechanical methods are more Fig. 6 Section of one dollar bill buried in sand filled jar for 33 months.Fig. 6 Section of one dollar bill buried in sand filled jar for 33 months.problematic than human explanations. Since Coopers body was never found, if he did walk out of the woods following the jump, we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was.


 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2014, 11:02:15 PM »
Now, hopefully I can get Tom back on here. I'm wondering if he is basing this on the original jump area. are we to conclude that the money couldn't have arrived after years of being in a secluded area in the bag protected for a period of time before being released through deterioration of the bag over time. since so much time has past, how much evidence has been erased in the first place? Georger I haven't mentioned anything about what happened when the money was found, or prior to being turned over to the FBI. I don't remember if this was made public, or if I should include this information without checking with you?

I just don't think Cooper would have done such a thing. why hope someone would find the cash. if Cooper had the idea of making it aware he was alive, why not send a crisp $20 bill right to the source. the FBI. there would be no question of him being involved, or someone really close to him that knows he survived. plus, I've said it many times. they were nowhere close to finding him, why would a plant be necessary? if the whole purpose would be to taunt the FBI. the best way is to mail it right to them! that would assure Cooper they got the message, and he would be laughing away.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:54:31 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2014, 04:16:04 PM »
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Now, hopefully I can get Tom back on here. I'm wondering if he is basing this on the original jump area. are we to conclude that the money couldn't have arrived after years of being in a secluded area in the bag protected for a period of time before being released through deterioration of the bag over time. since so much time has past, how much evidence has been erased in the first place? Georger I haven't mentioned anything about what happened when the money was found, or prior to being turned over to the FBI. I don't remember if this was made public, or if I should include this information without checking with you?

I just don't think Cooper would have done such a thing. why hope someone would find the cash. if Cooper had the idea of making it aware he was alive, why not send a crisp $20 bill right to the source. the FBI. there would be no question of him being involved, or someone really close to him that knows he survived. plus, I've said it many times. they were nowhere close to finding him, why would a plant be necessary? if the whole purpose would be to taunt the FBI. the best way is to mail it right to them! that would assure Cooper they got the message, and he would be laughing away.

So many things come to mind, in retrospect! Obviously the 'green bills' should have been examined. The full slate of tests I had originally planned should have been conducted which would have meant transferring Tom's three bills and other samples to others after Tom's work was done.   

There is nothing to warrant the word "plant" imo. There is no evidence it was a plant. One could also speculate that Cooper survived the jump, walked south intending to get across the Columbia, was afraid to cross at I5 or using the railroad bridge at Vancouver, made his west perhaps into the Shillapoo, and lost or was separated from his money. Flooding in the area eventually brings a remnant of the money to Tina Bar ?  Tina Bar looks to me like a "wash-in" scenario in terms of its location fairly far down the beach vs. the entry point east just before Catapillar Island. I think R99 is correct in terms of River Rd. presenting a higher elevation dike in any wash-in scenario. This then means a
fairly narrow channel for anything entering the Fazio beach and washing down the beach to where the Igram find was found. The wash-in 'flow' options are rather limited to arrive at the Ingram find location, imo. I interpret the Ingram find as being fairly high up on the beach which to me implies a 'high water' scenario. If the Cook claim is correct and bills were found further down the beach from the Ingram find then that strengthens the idea of a flow scenario.

These various claims of fragments east of the Ingram find (frags at 3 feet deep?) and Galen's claim of other bills being found west (down stream) of the Ingram find ... drives me crazy. Either these claims are true or they aren't. Schreuder's claims have to be accounted for. But Tom and Carol did not find 'any' fragments at Seattle! Schreuder says numerous fragments were collected and transferred to Seattle agents to be sent in for analysis. ???  Dorwin even mentions part of a decomposed brief case being found, but then retracts that.

Perhaps Cooper wandered into the area and encountered hobos who revealed him of his money (and perhaps Cooper of his life) and the Tina Bar money is a wash-in remnant of that encounter? I can say that one deputy at Vancouver thought that was a distinct possibility when the Ingram find was announced in 1980.

I agree with Tom, it would have been good to have enough bills to look for grains of sand in between the bills, and their type, in confirmation of the alleged FBI Quantico lab report which supposedly examined the Ingram bills.

I have to run here - will get back to this later. Maybe something will come to mind. I frankly feel like we let Carr and
the FBI down, in this whole matter! That is a very rare event in my life!

 


       
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2014, 04:24:50 PM »
Georger, let me remind you that the Columbia River runs about 2 degrees EAST of NORTH at Tina Bar.  This means that upstream is to the SOUTH and downstream is to the NORTH.

Consequently, the Fazio property is on the EAST side of the River at Tina Bar and Caterpillar Island is to the SOUTH of Tina Bar.

Robert99
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:29:13 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2014, 07:40:42 PM »
I have mentioned this before, but wouldn't you figure Cooper would mail some of the cash to the FBI. why take a risk someone finding the money and not saying anything. I'm not a scientist, but it appears the money was wadded up, and stuck together for the simple fact that it was in the bag for a long period protected to a certain degree, and then released into the wild :) I'm sure is was compressed to some extent being tied and tightly bound together for years sitting there getting wet & dry over and over. just another thought......
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2014, 03:02:00 PM »
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Georger, let me remind you that the Columbia River runs about 2 degrees EAST of NORTH at Tina Bar.  This means that upstream is to the SOUTH and downstream is to the NORTH.

Consequently, the Fazio property is on the EAST side of the River at Tina Bar and Caterpillar Island is to the SOUTH of Tina Bar.

Robert99

Thats correct ...
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2014, 12:44:10 AM »
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I have mentioned this before, but wouldn't you figure Cooper would mail some of the cash to the FBI. why take a risk someone finding the money and not saying anything. I'm not a scientist, but it appears the money was wadded up, and stuck together for the simple fact that it was in the bag for a long period protected to a certain degree, and then released into the wild :) I'm sure is was compressed to some extent being tied and tightly bound together for years sitting there getting wet & dry over and over. just another thought......

two more things come to mind I wanted to mention:

1. If the money had never been anywhere else but Tina Bar what kind of profile (of traits) would one expect to find, adjusted for time spent in different strata and at different locations on Tina Bar. The problem with this is all of the dredging sediments dumped on Tina Bar, some of that eroded by 1980, some possibly not eroded, some still in some strata below the upper active layers recently washed in in 1979 (which are fairly easy to identify trait-wise).
If the money had come up with dredge sediment deposited in 1974, what distinctive traits of that should the money show, if any? If the money is off to the side of where the dredge sediments are deposited, but arrived earlier or later than the sediments, should the bills show contamination traits of dredge sediments in any event ? These are just a few of the kinds of questions one is faced with when trying to evaluate the Tina Bar money in order to come up with any reliable conclusions -

2. Decomposition. What are the facts of the decomposition the money tells us? The history of this money and the facts of decomposition are related, inevitably. Many people asked about the holes and missing area in the bills. I think Tom made a significant discovery when he identified colonies of a bacterium as being associated with the formation of holes in the bills. (See his photos on his website.) That process is a clock and requires we define a habitat-zone. There is a forensic section in the US Treasury Dept where experts have examined thousands of samples of US currency is various states of decomposition with documented histories in many cases. I would have liked an opinion from these people.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2014, 01:10:53 AM »
Perhaps one of the US Treasury scientists would be willing to do an analysis on his own time.  I say that because nobody currently has the money to pay for such an analysis.  And maybe the Treasury Department has some unique equipment that they would permit him or her to use.  I guess this would be a "lunch hour" project for him or her for a relatively short period of time.  That is, no one should try to make a career out of this.
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2014, 01:19:57 AM »
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Perhaps one of the US Treasury scientists would be willing to do an analysis on his own time.  I say that because nobody currently has the money to pay for such an analysis.  And maybe the Treasury Department has some unique equipment that they would permit him or her to use.  I guess this would be a "lunch hour" project for him or her for a relatively short period of time.  That is, no one should try to make a career out of this.

This lab is small and understaffed as it is. They are up to their ears in work. I dont know how Tom feels about this
but he might try to make contact ... maybe someone there would agree to view some photos and answer some questions? For all I know they may even have some bills previously recovered from the Columbia area to compare with?  Ingram also has an extensive collection of photos of his money. Maybe the FBI would be willing to contribute some bills and/or some of their photos. They definitely are a resource if they could be brought on board.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2014, 03:47:20 PM »
Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?