Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 700727 times)

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2014, 04:01:48 PM »
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2014, 04:06:48 PM »
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...
 

Offline hom

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2014, 10:24:27 PM »
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..... But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

A cousin of mine found the paper bag around 1990, but it was empty. ;)
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2014, 11:49:58 PM »
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..... But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

A cousin of mine found the paper bag around 1990, but it was empty. ;)

I assume you are talking about Jo's paper bag? The brown paper bag in the glove compartment he stuffed bundles of money into and through out into the Columbia by the Red Lion Inn .... no doubt the same paper bag Duane had earlier when hijacking the airplane. Frugal isn't it!  ::) Your cousin could sell that brown paper bag on eBay for a lot of money! 

Webmaster help! My emoticons aren't showing or working ... is there some clicky thing I have to activate to have them pass through the maldum fornax?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 11:55:32 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2014, 12:27:19 AM »
Georger, check them now. I think this set should work???
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2014, 12:18:01 AM »
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
   
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 12:31:16 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2014, 08:44:01 PM »
Well, didn't Tom basically state the money couldn't have traveled the 20 miles to the Columbia, by using the original jump area? I still think he jumped much closer to the Columbia than what was believed. this should open up doors to more possibilities of the arrival of the money. why do we have to assume it was in Washington. do we have enough proof to stay out of Oregon? which way does the water flow in Oregon? do we have enough evidence to stay in the area everyone else does with suspects? lots of dead ends in this area.....
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:26:23 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2014, 03:23:32 PM »
here is another look around just before crossing the Columbia. lots of factors here with the water hazards all around.

 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2014, 12:09:39 AM »
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Well, didn't Tom basically state the money couldn't have traveled the 20 miles to the Columbia, by using the original jump area? I still think he jumped much closer to the Columbia than what was believed. this should open up doors to more possibilities of the arrival of the money. why do we have to assume it was in Washington. do we have enough proof to stay out of Oregon? which way does the water flow in Oregon? do we have enough evidence to stay in the area everyone else does with suspects? lots of dead ends in this area.....

My understanding is, Tom feels there is no 'natural' way for the money having come to Tina Bar IF you believe in the FBI flight path, which Tom does. [Tom could and should be answering this - not me.] If there are flaws in the FBI's timeline, then conceivably Cooper bails closer to the Columbia. Sluggo/Carr thought Orchird [I guess], and Anderson casts more doubt in identifying exactly where 305 was when the socalled 'bump' occurred. If its further south than Sluggo/Carr estimated well then we are even closed to the Columbia assuming the FBI fp. 

The hangup is the assumption the money location and the flight path are directly related. So far no hard evidence links the two, regardless of what flight path you subscribe to. Neither is there any evidence of a plant, while there is evidence of a wash-in scenario because virtually everything that is found on Tina Bar is the result of hydrological action ... 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:20:27 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2014, 02:21:50 PM »
Here are a few money location photos by Tom Kaye (see his website). Note the location carefully. I may need to make several posts to get the photos I want to present onto this thread - bare with me.
 
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2014, 02:23:16 PM »
More money location photos:
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2014, 03:13:59 PM »
Note, this photo construction uses the 9-6-74 govt photo of Tina Bar, taken shortly after dredge material had been deposited in two locations (see slump piles) on Tina Bar in August of 1974. This photo was taken before the Faxio had had a chance to spread the dredge piles out. Note* Tom's GPS location of the Ingram money find in relation to the left slump pile, a short distance downstream of the left-most dredge pile location. In this 1974 photo you can actually see the flow lines of the wet (just deposited) dredging material as it was slumping outward and downward back toward the river. The Fazio's will now spread these slump piles out (as soon as they have settled) in both directions from a mid point down the middle of each slump pile. By 1980, however, a combination of erosion and further overlayment of new sand (from high water events between 1974-1980) will have placed any remaining 1974 dredging material at a depth of about 4-8 inches, according to to Palmer's examination. Palmer of course claims that the Ingram find was deposited after the 1974 dredging deposits, between 1979 and February of 1980, based on his examination of the strata in a ditch he dug at the Ingram find location.  Note the circle the FBI put on this photo to note the Ingram find in relation to Tom's GPS location. This photo was originally submitted to the Cooper thread on Dropzone by SA Larry Carr.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:32:00 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2014, 05:09:14 PM »
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
 

In my defense, this is the pix I was thinking about when I challenged G-1's claim that the money was found close to detritus or trees.

Help, Shut!  How do I move/copy the pix from Georger's post above??? See June 26, 2014.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 05:13:47 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2014, 05:59:01 PM »
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
 

In my defense, this is the pix I was thinking about when I challenged G-1's claim that the money was found close to detritus or trees.

Help, Shut!  How do I move/copy the pix from Georger's post above??? See June 26, 2014.

Hold on -cool your jets! Just hold on. There appears to be a conflict in Tom's photos!  If that is the case, which I think it is, then the last photo I posted is wrong! Because I took measurements off of one of Tom's photos, which appears now to conflict with his other photos. This sure gets complicated.

So, hold your jets until this gets resolved. Shutter is not here to do anything. He's probably busy. This will get resolved in due course.

Years ago, Tom sent me a serie of photos of his money find GPS location. That location now appears to be in two different locations in the photos he sent - that is the question? Until this gets resolved - do and say NOTHING FOR A CHANGE!

In the meantime: these ARE! the photos on Tom's website which show his version of the money find location. That much is 1000% certain.

 
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:11:24 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2014, 06:20:04 PM »
Based on my memory of Meyer Louie's and my visit to Tina Bar, the money location on your last picture should be moved about 50-75 yards south (to the bottom of the picture).  Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates gave a position that was just down the hill toward the water from the Fazio's dairy containment pit.  And that pit is just over the fence (north side) from the road that leads out from the Fazio's buildings to the "Tina Bar" sign.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 10:03:56 PM by shutter »