Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 514467 times)

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5595 on: September 22, 2020, 12:09:14 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here's another thought - rather than looking at or close to Tena Bar, perhaps Cooper and the money landed further south. Say, on Hayden Island, Tomahawk Island or somewhere along the shore there. The body/money remained unseen on land but near the water. The flooding in May/ June of the following year rose enough to dislodge the remains with the money attached and it floated down to Tena Bar.

This theory is similar to R99, but with a no-pull closer to the FBI flight path.

My question is, what are the flood levels along that area of the Columbia? Perhaps they are lower than that of Tena Bar.

To preempt any dismissal of this theory on the basis of "debris from that part of the Columbia doesn't end up on Tena Bar", I'll point out that there are any number of  methods something like a body/money bag could have ended up there. The Columbia is a powerful girl with currents, tides, winds, and large ships all combining to create unpredictable steering of debris.

Thoughts?

This type of theory presents an array of major issues.

1) I believe it is impossible for three packets to stay together and self-bury.

2) Both Hayden and Tomahawk are west of the FBI Flight Path which means DBC jumping from 10,000 feet up would have to drift into the wind anywhere from 1 to 6 miles which strikes me as not possible.

3) This area is very populated and has a significant amount of commercial and private traffic on both land and sea--how does a rotting corpse go unrecognized?

4) This would necessitate everything drifting unnoticed a good 10 miles before it reaches Tena Bar. Then apparently everything but the three packets would have to drift another 100 miles out to sea completely unnoticed.

5) DBC jumping near PDX and landing in the Columbia creates a major timing problem for the pressure bump which occurred at 8:12.

6) DBC getting killed apparently went forever unnoticed. No missing persons reports point to DBC. No unpaid mortgage, utilities, car payments, anything anywhere that triggered interest in someone now missing.

Simply put, I think it is impossible.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5596 on: September 22, 2020, 12:23:47 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
FBI FOIA:  D.B. Cooper file page No. 004 of Part 44 - lab report four bills crystal ingram

FBI Lab Report, Washington re- specimens Q60-63 submitted for analysis - these are the four additional bills Crystal Ingram turned in late after the Ingrams had submitted their bills earlier.

Note Serial Numbers of these four bills, and sand type comparison of these bills with the Ingram bills submitted earlier ...

Georger,

Also note that the FBI laboratory received those bills on February 3, 1980 which was about 9 days before the money was found at Tina Bar.  Would you care to explain your statements above?
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Thanked: 24 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5597 on: September 22, 2020, 12:34:17 PM »
Fair points. Let me try to counter them:

1. It's possible that the packets remained in the bag until very shortly after arriving at Tena Bar. Between the bag deteriorating, the flooding, etc., I don't think it impossible. Also, the packets were not buried deeply in the sand. Ingram said he merely swept his over over the sand for the firepit.

2. Hayden and Tomahawk are actually right beneath the FBI flight path which takes the planes virtually over the I-5 bridge. Also, I am assuming a no pull which would result in no drift - only forward throw from when he jumped.

3. The west side of Hayden is no populated and undeveloped. Marine Park would also be virtually empty in the winter. The corpse could have landed in brush or undergrowth, been covered in snow, or both. My point is that were not talking downtown Portland.

4. It's possible the drifting could have occurred at night. Given the average current speed of that part of the Columbia, it would have taken between 12 and 18 hours for it to drift to Tena Bar. Flooding would have made the current even faster. Assuming the bag had opened to free the three bundles, that means that the rest of the money would have become free and ended up on the bottom of the river along with the body.

5. The timing of the jump has always been a bit of a question mark. The best we can tell is that it happened somewhere between 8:10 and 8:15. Also, as you yourself have pointed out, the speed of the flight seems to fluctuate. Thus, the flight could have been farther along the flight path than thought.

6. This I have no answer for, just guesses. I would like to know how thoroughly the FBI searched missing persons. Then you take a guy like Dick Lepsy who never would have been accounted for. There could be explanations for this.

I appreciate your thoughts, Eric. I'd like to hear more give and take on this from you and others.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5598 on: September 22, 2020, 01:10:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fair points. Let me try to counter them:

1. It's possible that the packets remained in the bag until very shortly after arriving at Tena Bar. Between the bag deteriorating, the flooding, etc., I don't think it impossible. Also, the packets were not buried deeply in the sand. Ingram said he merely swept his over over the sand for the firepit.

2. Hayden and Tomahawk are actually right beneath the FBI flight path which takes the planes virtually over the I-5 bridge. Also, I am assuming a no pull which would result in no drift - only forward throw from when he jumped.

3. The west side of Hayden is no populated and undeveloped. Marine Park would also be virtually empty in the winter. The corpse could have landed in brush or undergrowth, been covered in snow, or both. My point is that were not talking downtown Portland.

4. It's possible the drifting could have occurred at night. Given the average current speed of that part of the Columbia, it would have taken between 12 and 18 hours for it to drift to Tena Bar. Flooding would have made the current even faster. Assuming the bag had opened to free the three bundles, that means that the rest of the money would have become free and ended up on the bottom of the river along with the body.

5. The timing of the jump has always been a bit of a question mark. The best we can tell is that it happened somewhere between 8:10 and 8:15. Also, as you yourself have pointed out, the speed of the flight seems to fluctuate. Thus, the flight could have been farther along the flight path than thought.

6. This I have no answer for, just guesses. I would like to know how thoroughly the FBI searched missing persons. Then you take a guy like Dick Lepsy who never would have been accounted for. There could be explanations for this.

I appreciate your thoughts, Eric. I'd like to hear more give and take on this from you and others.

I just think a guy could sit there for a thousand years placing packets of twenties (paper currency) along the shore and never once would any packet--let alone three right next to each other--get buried by wave action. Moreover, that all three would get buried deep enough to avoid detection for eight years.

Remember too, Tena Bar started undergoing constant unmitigated erosion as of August 1974. Additionally, if the packets self-buried in May/June 1972, they would have also survived the May/June 1974 flood.

I simply look at everything related to Tena Bar and walk away thinking, "I don't see any possible way those three packets ended up here without being transported and buried by a human."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2387
  • Thanked: 327 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5599 on: September 22, 2020, 01:54:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fair points. Let me try to counter them:

1. It's possible that the packets remained in the bag until very shortly after arriving at Tena Bar. Between the bag deteriorating, the flooding, etc., I don't think it impossible. Also, the packets were not buried deeply in the sand. Ingram said he merely swept his over over the sand for the firepit.

2. Hayden and Tomahawk are actually right beneath the FBI flight path which takes the planes virtually over the I-5 bridge. Also, I am assuming a no pull which would result in no drift - only forward throw from when he jumped.

3. The west side of Hayden is no populated and undeveloped. Marine Park would also be virtually empty in the winter. The corpse could have landed in brush or undergrowth, been covered in snow, or both. My point is that were not talking downtown Portland.

4. It's possible the drifting could have occurred at night. Given the average current speed of that part of the Columbia, it would have taken between 12 and 18 hours for it to drift to Tena Bar. Flooding would have made the current even faster. Assuming the bag had opened to free the three bundles, that means that the rest of the money would have become free and ended up on the bottom of the river along with the body.

5. The timing of the jump has always been a bit of a question mark. The best we can tell is that it happened somewhere between 8:10 and 8:15. Also, as you yourself have pointed out, the speed of the flight seems to fluctuate. Thus, the flight could have been farther along the flight path than thought.

6. This I have no answer for, just guesses. I would like to know how thoroughly the FBI searched missing persons. Then you take a guy like Dick Lepsy who never would have been accounted for. There could be explanations for this.

I appreciate your thoughts, Eric. I'd like to hear more give and take on this from you and others.

I just think a guy could sit there for a thousand years placing packets of twenties (paper currency) along the shore and never once would any packet--let alone three right next to each other--get buried by wave action. Moreover, that all three would get buried deep enough to avoid detection for eight years.

Remember too, Tena Bar started undergoing constant unmitigated erosion as of August 1974. Additionally, if the packets self-buried in May/June 1972, they would have also survived the May/June 1974 flood.

I simply look at everything related to Tena Bar and walk away thinking, "I don't see any possible way those three packets ended up here without being transported and buried by a human."

Your focus is all wrong!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 02:06:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5600 on: September 22, 2020, 02:14:14 PM »
The document you seen the term "white material" is full of errors..

Unless I'm wrong if you pull the ripcord on a chute it opens and the container is pretty much worthless. are you claiming he stuffed the money in the container?

You seem to speak too much for Cooper IMHO. it's obvious he tried several ways with the pink chute and failed. he was seen trying different things while still angry about the knapsack. then he was seen tying it to his body which you seem to want to change as well. I don't believe Emerick knew it was a dummy chute by any means or he would of noticed a problem. it fooled him so why couldn't it fool Cooper? you assume the bag was not big enough...they gave him a canvas bag that pissed him off royally and yet failed to say it didn't close? the wrong bag was considered "funny stuff" giving it to him with no means of closure would of been worse IMO. enough to demand the knapsack again..

The myth as been running for years saying any experienced jumper would of known it was a dummy chute. a highly experienced jumper gave it to the FBI?

This IMO is where assumptions or theories turn into facts..
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 02:30:16 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5601 on: September 22, 2020, 02:19:13 PM »
Perhaps, Flyjack is right and they did put rubber bands around different quantities prior to putting the money into the bag. that would be something only Cooper would of known..
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5602 on: September 22, 2020, 02:21:06 PM »
The high waterline is very close to where the money was found. that means water is there often. they even say this on camera that the money was found at the high water mark..that's not a flood line..
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5603 on: September 22, 2020, 02:48:43 PM »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5604 on: September 22, 2020, 02:49:07 PM »
Again, the docs very clearly state that when Tina brought the fourth parachute onboard that DBC had already tied the neck of the money bag. They also clearly state that she saw him attempting to put the money in a reserve. How is this possible unless he removed some of the cash?

Also, the dummy reserve is gone. Why?

Remember, DB Cooper himself complained that he would have to use a parachute to wrap the cash. Moreover, as I've stated about 100 times previously, the money bag is significantly larger than the reserve parachutes. Therefore, it is plainly obvious that Cooper thinking he could fit the entire bank bag into the much smaller reserve is foolish. He used the dummy reserve to fit some of the cash into.

The money was not found at the high water line. Had water reached that spot over the years? Yes. Did it reach the spot more than twice between 1971 and 1980? No. The river level data clearly shows this.

But, even if it had, who cares? There is no way in hell three packets--or one brick--of paper currency just laps up onto the beach and gets buried for eight years. A coin is one thing. Paper currency bound by rubberbands is another matter entirely
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5605 on: September 22, 2020, 02:54:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


You can clearly see the high water mark about two feet from the water's edge. You can also clearly see that the area the reporter is standing is not wet and has not been underwater for a long time.

You can also see this in all of the other photos from Tena Bar.

The money find spot is several feet above the river at that time--which is probably unusually high because the weather had been very mild for the week leading up to February 10th. It actually reached 69 degrees.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5606 on: September 22, 2020, 03:01:09 PM »
That's at that time frame...ALL the tides need to be learned along with the river's actions..photo's only tell part of the story..
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 03:02:51 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5607 on: September 22, 2020, 04:36:41 PM »
First portion of her interview states he was complaining about the refueling and then mentions the knapsack and being displeased and being forced to rewrap the money.

The above describes what he needed to do but nothing was done yet..a little further into the interview she states while taking off he opened one of the chutes (pink) attempting to put the money into the container. he pulled a pocket knife out and cut either the container or the parachute rather than using the white bank type bag. during her telling him how she was afraid of being sucked out of the back he was still trying to secure the parachute to his body. the end of the first interview doesn't mention her seeing him tying anything nor does it mention her asking him to take the bomb..

The second interview she states she returned with the last chute and he already had the chute open and was wrapping the cord around the neck of the money bag and around the bag making a loop or a handle. she comments he was irritated about not getting the knapsack and trying to put the money in a unfolded chute he decided to leave in in the canvas bag. after being told to go to the cockpit she observed him standing in the isle with the cord tied around his waste. she then pleaded with him to take the bomb with him..

I pieced it together as I read..
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 04:41:09 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5608 on: September 22, 2020, 05:18:20 PM »
We have multiple things going on here which can be a little confusing, but I think her 302's are consistent.

First, we have Cooper tying the bank bag closed with obviously some money inside. This was underway by the time she brought in the last parachute.

Second, we have Cooper complaining that he'll need to wrap the money in a parachute because it wasn't delivered in a knapsack. This occurred after the refueling was well underway and he started getting concerned about the time it was taking. This was well after she brought the fourth parachute onboard and saw Cooper tie the neck of the bank bag.

Third, we have Tina paying "vague" attention to Cooper crafting a way to attach the money bag to his person.

Fourth, we have Tina saying she saw Cooper trying to put the money in a reserve.

When you consider the timing, the only thing that makes sense is that Cooper removed some of the cash from the bank bag. Not to mention, as I've stated before, I believe the money was delivered in a Size H bank bag which required that some of it be removed before Cooper could effectively tie shroud lines around the neck of the bank bag because it was too full. I've discussed this all along.

Therefore, I'm certain that when Tina saw him attempting to wrap the money in a reserve that it was only a portion of the money, not the entire lot. Also, I imagine Cooper would have wrapped the attache' case into the parachute canopy too which he would have done after she was up front.

In short, Cooper may have been looking at wrapping some of the money into the pink parachute but abandoned that effort opting to use the dummy reserve instead. After all, the pink parachute arrived in Reno, the dummy reserve did not.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • Thanked: 836 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5609 on: September 22, 2020, 05:39:19 PM »
We don't know if Cooper took any of the money out. she simply states he tried to put the money in a unfolded chute which could mean the container. she doesn't describe the actual chute this way. he could of tried wrapping the container around the bag for all we know. he wasn't ready for this option. did I miss her saying some of the money, I don't recall and will look again..

I still fail to see them giving him a bag against the demands that wouldn't close. that's a double whammy.

How do you think he put the money in the dummy chute?

The knapsack was perfect. it appears he tried to duplicate this and not just some of the money...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 05:41:46 PM by Shutter »