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[Bruce A. Smith]

FYI, everyone DID NOT vote for the dredge!

I voted maybe.

Until three days ago I had never heard of tidal fluctuations and reversals, and the notion that the ocean tides sweep all the way inland to Oregon City is incredible. That's way past T-Bar, Vancouver, and Portland. Now I'm reading that tidal impacts register at the Bonnevile Dam? Yikes.

In addition, we only need one critical confluence of factors to get the money to T-Bar. It only had to happen once. Plus, we only need 4 or 5 bundles to travel, not the whole load of twenties. Further, we don't have any really good idea of what happened at T-Bar, so I voted maybe.

Yes, I also voted for "dredge," back in the day, as that seems the most likely, even now. But I'm open to strange possibilities. Remember, we haven't talked about the cattle incident across the road in 1991, either, for a long time.

[FLYJACK]

I voted maybe because it is the correct answer.. "we just don't know"

[georger]

FYI, everyone DID NOT vote for the dredge!

I voted maybe.

Until three days ago I had never heard of tidal fluctuations and reversals, and the notion that the ocean tides sweep all the way inland to Oregon City is incredible. That's way past T-Bar, Vancouver, and Portland. Now I'm reading that tidal impacts register at the Bonnevile Dam? Yikes.

In addition, we only need one critical confluence of factors to get the money to T-Bar. It only had to happen once. Plus, we only need 4 or 5 bundles to travel, not the whole load of twenties. Further, we don't have any really good idea of what happened at T-Bar, so I voted maybe.

Yes, I also voted for "dredge," back in the day, as that seems the most likely, even now. But I'm open to strange possibilities. Remember, we haven't talked about the cattle incident across the road in 1991, either, for a long time.

/the notion that the ocean tides sweep all the way inland to Oregon City is incredible./

What sweep!? There has been no testimony about the velocity of the effect, or surge, or creeping accumulation - as the case may be. Now read the rest of my post before you run off to type an expert article ....! 

"Close by the Canadian border, this stretch of Down East Maine is known worldwide for its high tides and strong ocean currents. Peak tides rush in and out of Cobscook Bay at 7 miles per hour. From a boat, it's easy to appreciate the force of the water as it piles up against a large, white buoy ..." (Portland Maine Press)

"We explain why the Bay of Fundy tides are the world's highest tides, how tides are created (incl. neap/spring tides) and the best ways to experience the astounding tidal rush. ... high tide. This also means you will have to be careful when you explore the exposed ocean floor because the water can rush back in at over 10 meters per minute! Many careless people have been drowned ..." (Halifax Daily)

These tidal surges mentioned above have nothing to do with Lewis-Columbia confluence tidal action.

 

[georger]

Tidal affects not previously mentioned by FlyJack: (1) reverse flows stagnant, weaker, and less velocity than normal flow rates, (2) dead zones of no flow, (3) post tidal ebb stage: normal current surges as released, normal flow rates increase and are stronger for a period as reverse tidal effects subside! (4) reverse flow propagates as both longitudinal and transverse waves (perpendicular to longitudinal wave flow) creating turbulence, cavitation, and other obstructive forces - particles suspended in a reverse flow are know to circle in eddies and go nowhere ...   

TIDAL EFFECT ON THE COLUMBIA & WILLAMETTE RIVERS

In each 24-hour period the Oregon and Washington coasts experience two high tides and two low tides. These tides affect the Columbia upriver as far as Camas, but not much beyond, and upriver on the Willamette to Oregon City. Mean ranges of tides in the Columbia range from 6.7 feet at Astoria, to 1.3 feet at Vancouver and 1.8 feet at Portland.

Traveling upstream from the mouth of the Columbia, the effect of the tide takes approximately six hours to reach the mouth of the Willamette River. As this tidal effect works its way upstream, it slows or sometimes reverses the downriver current of the Columbia. When the tide changes to the ebb stage at Astoria, the holding action of the high tide against the river current is released and the river current then accelerates to discharge water held back by the tide. The same affect occurs to varying extent at all locations affected by tidal action

Tidal effects should be taken into consideration when anchoring, particularly in the lower Columbia where tidal rise and fall is more noticeable. To save time and fuel, boaters can use the forces of the tide to their advantage by timing the departure of a down river trip with the start of the ebb stage, and an upriver trip with the tidal release stage when unobstructed current resumes and is swifter.

Inexpensive tide books are available at most marine and fishing supply stores. These books list the predicted times of high and low tides for the calendar year. The books also give the times of high and low tides at various locations along the Columbia.



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[Bruce A. Smith]

Interesting, Georger. Perhaps I went swimming in the Columbia when one of the tide reversals happened and the current got pretty zippy. What I had thought was river "current" was actually something else. Hmmm.

[FLYJACK]

A theory on the dredge which may or may not include the money moving via Columbia flow reversal (all the way) to TBAR from the Lewis. The dredge could have scooped the money money up along the Columbia and moved it upstream.


Money ends up in Columbia via Lewis R.

Clamshell dredge picks up and it is barged to Sauvie Island and dumped on an approximately two mile stretch across from TBAR extending upstream. It is the only place that had a material deposit upstream of TBAR on Sauvie Island between 1971 and 1980. There was 163,210 cu/yds in 1976 and 44,023 cu/yds in 1977 dumped there. (map attached) The purpose was erosion mitigation. A dredge/barge operation could have moved "the money" a distance up river.

The location is a unique point of high erosion at the outside of the bend in the river. River erosion patterns suggest that loosened debris would get moved across to exactly where TBAR is.

This would place the money on TBAR sometime after 1976 on top of the 1974 TBAR dredge layer.

[FLYJACK]

Maybe the bundles moved up in the sand layer over a period of time due to the repeated process of liquefaction.. the fragments didn't move down, the buried bundle moved up.. and released fragments as it went up/moved.

[JLa]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

[377]

Yes, T-Bar was there in Nov. 1971.

377

[georger]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

[FLYJACK]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

[Robert99]

Tidal affects not previously mentioned by FlyJack: (1) reverse flows stagnant, weaker, and less velocity than normal flow rates, (2) dead zones of no flow, (3) post tidal ebb stage: normal current surges as released, normal flow rates increase and are stronger for a period as reverse tidal effects subside! (4) reverse flow propagates as both longitudinal and transverse waves (perpendicular to longitudinal wave flow) creating turbulence, cavitation, and other obstructive forces - particles suspended in a reverse flow are know to circle in eddies and go nowhere ...   

TIDAL EFFECT ON THE COLUMBIA & WILLAMETTE RIVERS

In each 24-hour period the Oregon and Washington coasts experience two high tides and two low tides. These tides affect the Columbia upriver as far as Camas, but not much beyond, and upriver on the Willamette to Oregon City. Mean ranges of tides in the Columbia range from 6.7 feet at Astoria, to 1.3 feet at Vancouver and 1.8 feet at Portland.

Traveling upstream from the mouth of the Columbia, the effect of the tide takes approximately six hours to reach the mouth of the Willamette River. As this tidal effect works its way upstream, it slows or sometimes reverses the downriver current of the Columbia. When the tide changes to the ebb stage at Astoria, the holding action of the high tide against the river current is released and the river current then accelerates to discharge water held back by the tide. The same affect occurs to varying extent at all locations affected by tidal action

Tidal effects should be taken into consideration when anchoring, particularly in the lower Columbia where tidal rise and fall is more noticeable. To save time and fuel, boaters can use the forces of the tide to their advantage by timing the departure of a down river trip with the start of the ebb stage, and an upriver trip with the tidal release stage when unobstructed current resumes and is swifter.

Inexpensive tide books are available at most marine and fishing supply stores. These books list the predicted times of high and low tides for the calendar year. The books also give the times of high and low tides at various locations along the Columbia.



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Uh, Georger, I not trying to be a smarty-pants, that is already well known, but you state above that the mean tide at Vancouver is 1.3 feet, while it is 1.8 feet at Portland.

The river gage for Vancouver is located on the north side of the Columbia River just a few hundred feet east of the Interstate 5 bridge.  I have never found a reference to a gage for Portland.

Since Vancouver is on the north side of the river, and Portland is directly across the river on the south side, what causes the different tide levels?

[georger]

Tidal affects not previously mentioned by FlyJack: (1) reverse flows stagnant, weaker, and less velocity than normal flow rates, (2) dead zones of no flow, (3) post tidal ebb stage: normal current surges as released, normal flow rates increase and are stronger for a period as reverse tidal effects subside! (4) reverse flow propagates as both longitudinal and transverse waves (perpendicular to longitudinal wave flow) creating turbulence, cavitation, and other obstructive forces - particles suspended in a reverse flow are know to circle in eddies and go nowhere ...   

TIDAL EFFECT ON THE COLUMBIA & WILLAMETTE RIVERS

In each 24-hour period the Oregon and Washington coasts experience two high tides and two low tides. These tides affect the Columbia upriver as far as Camas, but not much beyond, and upriver on the Willamette to Oregon City. Mean ranges of tides in the Columbia range from 6.7 feet at Astoria, to 1.3 feet at Vancouver and 1.8 feet at Portland.

Traveling upstream from the mouth of the Columbia, the effect of the tide takes approximately six hours to reach the mouth of the Willamette River. As this tidal effect works its way upstream, it slows or sometimes reverses the downriver current of the Columbia. When the tide changes to the ebb stage at Astoria, the holding action of the high tide against the river current is released and the river current then accelerates to discharge water held back by the tide. The same affect occurs to varying extent at all locations affected by tidal action

Tidal effects should be taken into consideration when anchoring, particularly in the lower Columbia where tidal rise and fall is more noticeable. To save time and fuel, boaters can use the forces of the tide to their advantage by timing the departure of a down river trip with the start of the ebb stage, and an upriver trip with the tidal release stage when unobstructed current resumes and is swifter.

Inexpensive tide books are available at most marine and fishing supply stores. These books list the predicted times of high and low tides for the calendar year. The books also give the times of high and low tides at various locations along the Columbia.



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Uh, Georger, I not trying to be a smarty-pants, that is already well known, but you state above that the mean tide at Vancouver is 1.3 feet, while it is 1.8 feet at Portland.

The river gage for Vancouver is located on the north side of the Columbia River just a few hundred feet east of the Interstate 5 bridge.  I have never found a reference to a gage for Portland.

Since Vancouver is on the north side of the river, and Portland is directly across the river on the south side, what causes the different tide levels?

I saw that too and wondered the same thing. I merely copied that article as found.

[Robert99]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

Flyjack, you are free to try to come up with some miraculous explanation to explain your theory.  However, on the day of the EU shoot, the river flow was NOT moving UPSTREAM at 0.68 MPH, nor was it moving DOWNSTREAM at 4 or 5 knots as Bruce Smith claims.  Take a look at those boats on the river that had stopped to watch what was going on and to wave to the drone when it flew near their boats.  It was just another normal, hot and muggy day on the river. 

[FLYJACK]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

Flyjack, you are free to try to come up with some miraculous explanation to explain your theory.  However, on the day of the EU shoot, the river flow was NOT moving UPSTREAM at 0.68 MPH, nor was it moving DOWNSTREAM at 4 or 5 knots as Bruce Smith claims.  Take a look at those boats on the river that had stopped to watch what was going on and to wave to the drone when it flew near their boats.  It was just another normal, hot and muggy day on the river.

If you actually read my comment I NEVER SAID THAT... SO STOP YOUR STRAWMAN NONSENSE.